The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#135 - Nick Cornell, Founder of Trailhead Athlete Management
The sport we love is growing up, and that’s a good thing—if we build it right. I’m joined by athlete and agent Nick Cornell of Trailhead Athlete Management to dig into what “professional” actually looks like in trail running: livable contracts, smarter bonuses, real anti-doping, and a path that lets athletes focus on performance without losing the grassroots soul that makes this community special.
Nick shares how he went from thru-hiking the Triple Crown to winning Montana 50Ks and managing athletes who train 20 hours a week while juggling logistics, content, deliverables, and travel. We unpack what brands want beyond results—genuine people with presence—and why short trail deserves more investment alongside ultras. We also talk hard numbers: why most pros still sit in the low five figures, how a league minimum could change that, and where healthcare and PT stipends fit in. If you’ve wondered whether rumors of huge salaries are real, or how to negotiate your first deal, Nick gives grounded, practical insight.
We go deep on legitimacy and the World Mountain and Trail Championships—federations offering team camps and big bonuses, the realities of kit rules, and why national team results should be bonused just like track. From out-of-competition testing to non-endemic sponsors—cars, banks, tourism boards, food brands—we explore the funding models that could unlock full-time careers without sidelining local races. The takeaway is hopeful: keep the watermelon at aid stations and the big stages on the calendar. With smarter structure, everyone wins.
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Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Nick Cornell to the show. Nick, both an athlete in his own right as well as an agent in our sport. Nick is the founder of Trailhead Athlete Management based in Missoula, Montana. And he was kind enough to come on for just a kind of slew of questions that we uh and things that we debated about the sport. Really appreciate Nick for his time. We got into just what it's like to be an agent in our sport, kind of why the time is now to kind of strike and you know if you're interested in helping athletes and you know what the what the job kind of encompasses outside of just finding partnerships. Uh we talked about relationship building, developing relationships both with athletes and brands. Um we talked about advice. We got into, especially now because contract season's pretty much wrapped up. Um we talked about advice for athletes that might be looking for contracts in the next calendar year or maybe even in this one, and kind of what brands are looking at or looking for, depending on what type of brand you are. Um we talked about athlete pay in its own right. We talked about health care for athletes, um, what needs to change, got into drug testing in and out of season, um, and what needs to change for the sport as well. And the Olympics. Lots of good topics. Uh, I think this was a really fun one. Uh Nick is a brilliant mind in the sport and a super nice guy, so really appreciated him for his time and uh being open to uh answering my slew of questions that I had. So without further ado, uh I hope you guys enjoy this one, Nick Cornell. One more thing before I let you guys get going. Um I do want to apologize. I don't know what happened on my end, I don't know if the internet was bad or whatnot, but a lot of my episode or my my side, um, not Nick's, came out kind of clipped. So every time I talk into the mic, for some reason it sounds kind of clippy and just uh uh I don't just not really good audio quality. So I'm really want to apologize for that. Hopefully get that cleaned up in post-production and it just didn't come out as uh clear as I wanted it to. So hopefully get that fixed moving forward. But I really appreciate you guys and uh thanks so much. Awesome. Nick Cornell, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man?
SPEAKER_01:It's going pretty well. Enjoying a lovely fall day, Missoula.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Well, dude, I I really appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to have a conversation with me. Um as we get started, you know, maybe just give us like the the little elevator pitch on your background, who you are, and uh we could talk a little bit about trailhead athlete management.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. Um yeah, I live in Missoula, Montana. Um, I've been a trail runner, I guess, for almost 10 years now. Um before that I was a through hiker. I came from that background, did the Triple Crown in the United States over a period of years. Um kind of fell in love with traveling on trails and ended up running. Um got into 100Ks and all that. Um yeah, and once I was in Montana, I met my girlfriend, uh Jen Lichter, um who's now a professional trail runner, and so that's how I got to learn that sort of business side of things. Um yeah, I found it pretty interesting. It's it's a lot, you know, these elite athletes, they manage a lot of stuff. Um and most of them, you know, don't like answering emails, don't like being on computers. Um, so I found that kind of universally throughout most of the elite shroud runners nowadays. Um yeah, so we live in Missoula. We've been here for three years, I think. Um yeah, we love it here. It's good training partners, good trails. Um, yeah, it's it's a good place.
SPEAKER_02:It is a great place. My uh my buddy Jackson Cole lives up there. Um I think I think you took a photo of him recently that he like posted or something like that. Um yeah, he's he loves it. It seems like everybody I talked to that spends time up there or has ever lived up there like absolutely like loves the area.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're right now it's fall and everyone's still trying to get out while they can before the snow comes and you know now it's the sun setting at five o'clock and it's a bit rough.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, did you I I just I don't know, I was like scrolling on Instagram recently and I saw that like someone stole a Sinclair dinosaur and like put it on uh what's the local peak that you guys have with the giant M on it? I think that I think that was in Bozeman. Oh, never mind. Okay, damn. It's close.
SPEAKER_01:I think I didn't look too much into it, but yeah, I think that was Bozeman. Oh, all right. Well, nobody getting ideas. Honestly, I could be wrong.
SPEAKER_02:All right, let's let's I want to talk a little bit about your background. I I read up on you a decent amount and saw that you had played uh D3 soccer in college, and like you're like a solid athlete in your own right, man. Um let's talk about up your a little bit about your background. Like, let's talk soccer and first of all, like what position did you play?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I played soccer all my life. Um my mom played at a high level. Uh um, you know, she played on the women's national team back in 1985. My brother also played D3 soccer. I played D3 soccer. Um, yeah, I was like a left-wing. Um so I was running a lot naturally. I was pretty fit without trying to get fit, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, so I played at a small school in Virginia for uh for four years. It was really cool. It was like a new brand new program. Um the school just went co-ed like three years before I got there. Um, so yeah, it's a brand new program. We went to the NCAA tournament one year, made it to Sweet 16. Like, it was a really cool experience. Um V3 is pretty fun. You know, the people are there working hard and they're there for like it feels like the right reasons. Um yeah, so that's that's sort of my yeah, endurance background. There's a lot of that soccer player, the trail runner pipeline is is pretty strong.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, dude, that was that was my sport. Like I was uh left back and yeah, I I grew up in South Florida, so it was it's like a very deep uh I don't know, like a lot of uh I guess more multicultural or multinational, I guess you could say, because it's a lot of uh more of a South American emphasis, which like makes it super fun. Um yeah, it's it's a great sport. Are you are you do you still like follow the sport at all? Are you like uh you follow like uh all the different leagues and stuff?
SPEAKER_01:No. No. Um I definitely there was a time period where I used to, but um no, not anymore. I mean, yeah, not at all.
SPEAKER_02:I don't I I don't either.
SPEAKER_01:I was just just curious. It's hard to keep track of you know all the trail running stuff and then like wake up at you know five, six a.m. in the morning to watch EPL games.
SPEAKER_02:It's true. That's true. Yeah, it's kind of wild. The the European scene is is not, I guess I don't know, you compare it to like trail running and it's like, oh man, like it's it's too much now. Yeah. Uh speaking of which, I'm gonna pivot to trail running a little bit and talk about your kind of just your background. Like, did you discover the sport like through Jennifer? Did you discover the sport just like randomly signing up for a race? Like, how did you get into trail running?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I don't I don't know. I'm not sure how I discovered it per se. I grew up like right on the Appalachian Trail in Front Royal, Virginia. Um, so there were, I guess there were trailrunners, like the old Dominion 100 is right there, the Mass Nunn 100 was right there. I so I probably like you know caught little bits and pieces of it growing up. Um yeah, then at some point in one of my through hikes, I started sort of following the sport. I figured I started backpacking 30, 40 miles in a day and thought, oh I could run this if I didn't have a backpack on me. Um and yes, during the summers when I was through hiking, I would start following like you know, follow Western states while I was through hiking and getting into that. Um yeah, then I I made my parents support me for a 50k trail run on the AT after I finished the PCT. Um just like I went out and did it, really knew nothing about it. My T-band blew up, and I think I only did a 50K as opposed to a 50 mile. Um and then after the CDT, I did my first like 50k proper trail race, which was in uh North Carolina, I think it was in the naturalist. Um, and that was my first introduction to like the scene and like you know the vibe and actually doing a race. Um yeah, and I only I would only do like one or two races a summer for many years. I would only train six weeks beforehand for many years. Like the winter was my time off. Um yeah, then once I started dating and hanging out with Jen, I started running like year-round. Um and yeah, I like to do races around Montana nowadays. Um this year I did the beaver head 55k and the whitefish 50k. Um yeah, I was able to win both of those. Uh so it's cool to be you know doing well in this region. It's like it's a sense of pride.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's cool to explore your own little area.
SPEAKER_02:What's the scene like over there? I mean, just from I I know we kind of little talked a little bit about Missoula, but like just the scene in general um in Montana. Like the it feels like I don't know, between Adam Peterman, Jeff McGavro, Jennifer, like there's so many amazing drill runners coming out of Montana at this point. Like you talk about it, like what do you what do you think as far as the growing scene?
SPEAKER_01:I think the the there's a lot of still like a lot of grassroots events. There's still a lot of like local crushers that stick to their hometown races and just will like show up and throw down. Um, you know, in Missoula, there's a lot of guys that they go out on these long adventures and you know they don't boast about it. Um yeah, it's fun. I mean, it's cool just go on a long run and you know, you run, you see one or two trailrunners out there. Um you see on the weekends in Missoula, there you'll see I don't know, 20 people out trail running on a you know long run Sunday. Um it's crazy. I mean it's uh yeah, it's a good scene. Good vibes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Very cool, very cool. All right, let's pivot. I can't I don't want to bury the lead. Let's let's talk agent stuff. Um dude, you're you you're an agent, you you have this company, Trailhead Athlete Management. What prompted you to want to start a business like this?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I just saw there's there's I saw an over opportunity, I saw openings, um, I've thought about it for many years. Um I've talked to people, you know, in the industry for a few years. Um you know, there's never a right time to start something, so I just figured what the what the heck? Let's throw up a website, let's get into it, um let's see what happens. Um yeah, so like um Jen got her first pro contract in 2020 shoot, 2021, 2022. Um so that was my first like time, you know, seeing that sort of thing, and it's like like wow, you know, back in the day people were getting shoes like based on upon a handshake and now people are signing these long, lengthy contracts and NDAs, and you know, it's months of negotiations. Um Yeah, so I just saw there's I mean there's only I don't know, maybe two people that are dedicated to being an agents for trail runners. You know, there's road and trail agents. Um there's a lot of agencies that just do road and trail on the side. Um yeah, and right now, I mean, the we like to think that sport has grown a lot, but it's gonna grow more. Um I really want to start it now because I was like, oh shoot, you know, at some point trail running will could end up in the Olympics, and at that point you can't start an agency. You have to start it five to ten years ahead of time. Um, and so that's really like why that was like the the precursor, that was that was it. I was like, like now's a good time.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's cool, man. So I just some backstory. Like, I went to high school uh with two guys that went on to become like NFL agents, and like they have all these law degrees, it's super fancy, you gotta take all these stupid tests to become one. And I love our little sport where like if you want to be an entrepreneur and like you can make these brand connections and start a business, like we still allow the ability to do that. And it's like I think it's perfect because the right person at the right time, like you can get in now and develop these relationships and build the business like this. And yeah, like you said, you know, however long it takes for us to get in the Olympics, like it's uh you'll have quite a book of business by the time that comes around, which I think is really intelligent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I do enjoy that part of the sport where you can you can stick a claim and create something. You know, back during like COVID, I was like, uh maybe I should take a coaching course and start doing that, and I didn't do that. And then like, you know, podcasting is blowing up, and I'm like, that doesn't seem right for me. And uh yeah, and this this opportunity sort of like presented itself. And I mean, yeah, let's figure give it a shot. I mean, what's yeah, what's the harm?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about I think I think a misnomer is people think it's just uh, you know, working with an agent is just you um getting deals for them. There's a lot more to it. Can you talk a little bit more about like the services like you guys provide, like logistics, the scheduling, things like that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think especially for trail running, um, yeah, you can't just be an agent. These pe these athletes aren't making enough money to hire an agent and a manager. Um, and so you need, I feel like you need to be that all-encompassing resource. Um so yeah, so yeah, getting people brand deals, answering the emails, uh, figure out you know, race calendars, figure out travel logistics, um, you know, with the growth of social media, you gotta figure out when to be posting about what, um, keeping on tabs with your uh deliverables for every contract. Um yeah, there's a lot. And that like if you rail stuff down, like that's its own sort of part-time job and on top of training 20, 25 hours a week for these people. Um yeah, so I think at Trailhead, we're trying to be that all-encompassing supportive role to you know, take a load off for these lead athletes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, dude, just like the scheduling from the social media stuff, like that alone. I mean, I can think of stuff like I have just for myself as an athlete and for the podcast, and like there's stuff well, I can't go in super deep, but like, yeah, I gotta post shit like twice a month and stuff like that. And like you forget, and it's like, oh man, you know, an agent would be really helpful to like set a little reminder, like, let me know this needs to be done, or you have this deliverable and stuff like that. Like, it really like matters. Um yeah, I don't know where I'm going with that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you see that nudge, or you need a calendar with if you have four different contracts with you know X amount of Instagram deliverables, that's that adds up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I gotta ask you this. What like I wanted to explore more like your why. Um obviously there's a need in the space, but like what is the deeper why? Is it to help athletes? Is it to uh you know create a career path for yourself? Is there like like what is the kind of the burning desire?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I the yeah, at the heart of it, I'm just I just want to help athletes. They're you know, they're putting in the work, they're working as much as any other lead athlete in any endurance sport, any maybe even any team sport, uh, and they deserve to be compensated fair fairly. Um yeah, I I you know I don't want the days where people are scraping by and working part-time jobs while training 20 hours a week. That's just that's crazy. Um, yeah, so that the heart of it is is the goal just to help athletes. I I don't feel a need to make a lot of money off of it. Like at the start, you can't have that as a goal. Maybe 10 to 20 years, I will make enough money off of it, but yeah, for the time being, just to help athletes and just and just make the most of their you know, their potentially short careers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, on that topic, let's let's talk careers. I I find it really interesting now that we're we're in this space where someone like Kelly Newland will go on a podcast and talk about, and we'll get into this later because I do have this question about this for you, um, where people will talk about athletes making over 500 grand a year in the sport, people are talking about all longevity and this, that, and the other. Like, how do you view it for as an agent, like working with athletes? Like, is it for you like this uh almost like a partnership for a career? Like, I I think that's the way almost athletes in the sport now, from a professionalization perspective, like almost need to view it is as a career, um, especially as there's more money starts to roll in. Like, how do you view that? Or is it just this like one to two year thing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I like to look at it as a career. It's uh I mean you are realistically, uh ideally, I guess you think in over 10 years. And that and that in my book is a career. I mean nowadays these athletes are hiring you know, strength coaches, nutritionists, um, they have brands on their side, maybe they have an agent, and that you that's reflective of a career. You're building a team around you. Um that and you know, your running is not only supporting you, but it's supporting these other people too. Um, so it's becoming definitely a career path. Um, you know, and the interest interesting thing too is what happens after that 10-year career. Um, you know, there are some brands that are bringing on athletes in different roles, and that's exciting. Um and uh yeah, definitely like to see more of that in the future.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think there's a space where like that's a negotiable thing? Like, I don't know, take for instance, uh, we can use Jennifer as an example. Um, one of the greatest, uh at this point, one of the greatest trail runners I think to have ever done it on the short trail side and into the ultra as well, like 50k mountain runners. There'll be a you know a time when maybe she doesn't want to do this anymore and wants to move on in her career. Do you think there's opportunities there for athletes like that to be able to go in-house and I don't know, help develop shoes, help develop product, all these different things? Like, what do you think that'll be more available as time goes on for athletes?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it will. I think a lot of these athletes should be brought on like in team management roles because they know you know what goes into a hard season. Um, they know what it's like to be an elite athlete. Uh, I think unfortunately, a lot of these teams are like 20 people deep, and not all those people will get jobs after they're done. Um I know a lot of athletes have made made uh career in coaching as well, or I think we'll see a lot of people sort of do like the YouTube channel thing after they're done, um, like Nick Simmons and that sort of YouTube thing. Um yeah, I think we'll see more of it as the sport professionalizes and as athletes gain these experiences that are useful uh for the brands down the road. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What is it like for you? I I mean I always found this interesting, just both on like from an athlete perspective and from the podcast perspective, like having to reach out to these brands, like make relationships, foster and develop these relationships, and then hold on to them. How is it from an agent perspective? Like, do you have to like develop these relationships, or is it more you uh going to set athlete manager or set media contact and trying to work on deals and stuff like that? Like, what is kind of like more of the nuts and bolts for for that like side of the business?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's about building and yeah, managing those relationships. It's uh yeah, it's sort of that that long-term goal of uh you know not pestering every every brand manager with every athlete that wants to sign with them, but but figure out what the athlete wants so you have so you're like actually have a good partnership for this brand. Let's talk. Um yeah, so it's about you know thinking long term and keeping those uh relationships going. Um yeah, I mean they're once you know who they are, you you can walk up to them and have conversations with them at races or at other events. Um these people are involved in the sport and they like talking to people in the sport. Um, so yeah, that's and at this point trail running is small enough that it they are still approachable, and that's that's really cool.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That's true too. These people are not like super unable to get in touch with like all you gotta do is peruse LinkedIn and there's there's ways.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean your email probably goes their spam folder, but if you send them a LinkedIn, they'll probably go find it. That's true.
SPEAKER_02:That's true. Um, I think this is a really important time for this pod, just because, like, given where it is and on the calendar, right? Like, we're kind of deep in in the heart of contract season right now. Like, you know, within the next month or two, like athletes are going to be talking about where they'll be making these changes. I think this is really important because there's a lot of athletes that listen to this that are kind of on that bubble that really want to become elites or get contracts and things like that. From your perspective, like, dude, I know this is a very open-ended question, but like what kind of advice do you have for athletes that are trying to like make it in the sport now? Like, is consistency more important? Is it one-hit wonder stuff where you're going and winning one big race? Like, how what advice would you have for athletes?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh, yeah, November's pretty exciting. It's I think, you know, I I feel like it by this time most people have like wrapped up their negotiations. Um, so like yeah, advice for advice for people trying to do it is uh yeah, definitely consistency. Um, you gotta go the right races, you gotta go to the big stages and prove yourself. Um and yeah, just keep doing it for the right reasons. Find the races you love that happen to be big stages and throw down. Um I know like you know, like Will Murray at Black Canyon, he got a gold ticket, wasn't able to race, and coming to Havelina, it's he had to prove himself to you know just show the world that he belongs on that stage, and it was cool to see him do that. Um yeah, and then outside of the results, he's gotta figure out a way to stand out. Um whether if you're an outspoken personality in the sport or you know, a deep thinker and uh you know have good thoughts for podcasts and Instagram posts. Um I think just yeah, you just gotta find a way to stand out and have the consistent results.
SPEAKER_02:On that topic, um so this is interesting. I I I've wondered this, I don't know. Like I've had some conversations. Excuse me. Just getting over a cold. Um these like what what really matters besides like the the performances? Like what are these athlete managers looking at? Like, does it really actually matter if you write a sub stack? Like, does it actually matter if you have a voice outside? Like, is that actually value or is it really just brand dependent?
SPEAKER_01:I I think it's definitely brand dependent. Um I think the one thing the brands want are like genuine good people. Um, you know, and that's why they want to have conversations with potential athletes is just to figure out if there's a connection there, figure out if you're putting up a facade, figure out if you're a good person, because they want they just want good people who can uh who can run fast. Um, you know, if you have large audiences in Substack or Instagram, that's it's not gonna hurt you. Um uh but and yeah, at the end of the day, you just gotta have consistent results. Um yeah, that's that's the most important.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It's interesting, man. I don't know, there's some athletes in the sport, and I'm not gonna name names just because that's weird, but like there are a few like really consistent athletes in the sport that are just so talented and have done really well. Um and I just find it so interesting that some athletes just can't get contracts, and it's more on the short trail side. Like um, you know, you see athletes get, I don't know, on the podium of Broken Arrow 46k this year and then go win speedgoat and do all these amazing things, qualify for worlds, and still can't get their foot in the door. Like, what is that just brands being brands, or like what what is that? Is it is it just because short trails is not as much valued as long trail? Like, how did brands kind of look at that?
SPEAKER_01:I think there's a little like serendipity with it all, like sort of like the right time, right place. Um, you know the right people, you talk to the right people, you have the right relationships. Um that's definitely a part of it across you know all genres of trail running, just the right time, right place. Um yeah, as far as your question, like short trail stuff. Um I think definitely in this, you know, in our country, we heavily value the ultra scene. Um I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's that's the American way to go after the the biggest and the best thing. Um I think there will be more possibilities for you know short trail in the future. Um, you know, I like Worlds was a good example, the short trail races, the mountain classic. There were high-level competitive races, and I think they'll continue to be so for the next few years. Um Golden Trail is another you know exciting proving ground if you can get on that train. Um yeah, but like you mentioned, like our sort of national short series races, like like the Cirque series, for instance.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um Yeah, I definitely agree that those don't those aren't really like the highest they uh they don't get the most attention.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I don't know why that is. I is it you know, it could be you know, it could be the brand not offering the the highest bonuses to bring the competitors that you then go race. Um and so yeah, I mean if you're looking for trunk contracts, you gotta figure out where the elites go and go and race them um more than just going to find races to win, if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_02:It does. It does. Well, I I guess it's such an American thing, like I said, like we or like you said, we do value uh the bigger, longer I don't I I just don't get it. Like, what is that to where we put so much emphasis? Because like you've run the Rut 50K, you've spent a lot of time with the Rut. Like that's such a like special like race to the Montana scene. That's just I would classify that relatively as a short trail racing series. Um broken arrow, short trail racing series. Like some of the best races in our country are short trail. I don't know why we put so much value on I don't know, on the longer stuff when I think there's just there's quite a lot there for the short stuff.
SPEAKER_01:For sure. I mean broken arrow, yeah. The broken arrow 23k is like the biggest proving ground in Ultra right now, I think. Um yeah, I love the rut. 26k is pretty pretty special. And yeah, there are a handful of competitors that could show up for that. Um yeah, man. I it's hard to say is you know, it's whether the brands are deciding where to put their money in the longer stuff because they see more of uh you know return on investment uh growing the ultra scene, and that probably has something to do with it. Um but I think you know, with the growth of Golden Trail across the world, I think things will pick up in that scene, you know, with their signing with uh HBO and um I think that'll help. I hope that'll help.
SPEAKER_02:That'd be dope. That would be dope. I I totally agree. Yeah, it's crazy, man. Like you can watch now, yeah, like any golden like the golden trail final on HBO Max or whatever. And um Yeah, you can't do that for most of the sport, which I think is really cool. So that opens up more avenues for more folks to come in and uh I guess just entry points as well uh to do the sport, which I think grows it in its entirety. Uh I want to shift gears and talk money with you. Uh and I don't Know how much you can answer to this, and I can cut this out if it makes you squit like squirmish, but like I I've heard a lot of talk in the last few weeks about there's trail athletes making 500k a year, and this is like such a hot button topic. I must have had this sent to me like 20 or 30 times. I personally, from the people I know, thought some of it was BS, and I've heard also had people tell me like that's legit. As an agent in the sport, as person with contacts, like is that legit? Like, what are you what are your thoughts on this?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, it's a million dollar question.
SPEAKER_02:But pun intended, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I think there are a handful of people making like good good money in the sport. Um, you know, it's hard to say those numbers. Um and I think you know, the more those top people are paid, the better for everyone else. Yes. Um yeah, I don't I like yeah, you just I just all hearsay unless you have first person contact and first person numbers.
SPEAKER_02:Literally 50-50. Like half the people I spoke to that are like were pretty legit were like, yeah, no way. Half the people were like, yep, 100% this is real. That's kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I think I like I'm definitely focusing my attention on making sure everyone else gets paid more. That's right. Yeah, you know, like a rising tide lifts all lifts all ships. So, you know, if the highest people in the sport can make more, then hopefully the the people who are just signing contracts won't be signing contracts anymore for five thousand dollars. They they'll be starting at twenty. I think that's I think that's a good that's what sh what we should be focusing on instead of who's making the most and what they're making. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, I totally and that's kind of where I'm going, is like if that's the case and there is some truth to that, then I my hope would be that there is gonna be a lot more full-time athletes in the sport within the next five to ten years. And it's going to just continue to raise the sport up. Um, even for, I don't know, you could say B tier, C tier athletes, where there's gonna be just more availability for money to be made and they can uh go full-time or at least work a heck of a lot less and focus more on their craft.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it'd be cooler to have brands support people more all in so they don't have to have that part-time job. Um, you know, I've heard like suggestions of having minimum contracts in order to be like a pro runner. Um you know, maybe something like PTRA could have that that started, you know, only having a minimum contract a lot of 10 grand in salary, and then addition travel and stuff. Um yeah, that's that's a cool idea um to support these people right from the start, you know, to give them an opportunity to perform their best um as they're breaking out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So that way you're that way you're a full-time athlete, you know, at the age of 25 instead of you're 20, you know, for five years you're working a part-time job and being a full-time athlete. That's hard. Um and you know, that would also progress and grow the sport a lot more if you're if we're full in um supporting our best level athletes. Um you know, and that's I mean, yeah, installing some sort of contract minimum would be very hard. I think also the flip side of it is that there are many people eager to be a professional athlete and they will they will sign anything for for that title, whether it means something or not. Um they just want that image. Um yeah, so it is very interesting to balance all that stuff and to make sure you know everyone's happy. Um yeah, I think you know, as we expect more out of our athletes, they will need more money. Um you know, traveling Europe two or three times a year is is not cheap.
SPEAKER_02:All right, in a perfect world, like League Min, how how do we get like a league minimum? How could we make that happen? Because I think that would be like great for the sport because it rises up and there will be more money all around. Like I dude, I I I bring up the same question for like athlete healthcare. I have this like quite a few professional athletes I'm very close with that don't make a lot of money, especially on the short trail side. And healthcare comes up all the time and it's a constant question. It's like, how do we get, you know, especially everyone's an independent contractor? It's uh it's a funky thing in that way. People have to get sometimes crazy surgeries, the medical bills add up. Outside of League Minimum, like how do we how do we get medical involved? Like, like how do we uh I don't know, make it a better sport all around for our athletes?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is like the scary reality where your your career just is on a thin edge. And if things go well, you rise up and yeah, like if you said you end up with a large surgery, you you drop out of the sport, it seems like. And that's yeah, that's not ideal. Um, I think, yeah, in order to have some sort of minimum, you'd have to have all the brands on board. Um, I think the PTRA might have the power to do that. It is a weird thing with the sport, is that we don't have one oversight committee or organization that couldn't you know create that uh contract minimum. Um yeah, healthcare is also a big thing. Um you know, luckily the Europe or European friends don't really have to worry about that too much. But yeah, in the States it is scary.
SPEAKER_02:Um uniquely American American issue.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um I think some people are getting, you know, like PT uh stipends now, which is helpful. Um, you know, hopefully that curbs some of their some of their bills for healthcare. Um yeah, and you know, frankly, I I'm not sure, you know, on the road scene if they have healthcare in their contracts. Um I might actually do some investigation in that because that sounds pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but yeah, I think it's a necessity, yeah, especially as we get more professional, more way faster as the money increases. Um, yeah, you wouldn't want it weighing on you know one surgery if you happen to fall and break a leg.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I was spitballing this with Dan Kurtz somewhere recently, and we were talking about like athlete healthcare, and we were also talking about um out of competition testing pool. And people are like, well, you know, how do we fund this? How do we get something like this funded? I think at the very like basic line, uh this is kind of a crazy thing, but like maybe we'd figure out a way to get the brands to fund it. And whether it's like some sort of small, I don't know, you raise the price of your shoe five cents and it goes to a fund, like an in you know what I'm saying? It like goes to some sort of like trail running fund. And I mean, I dude, I did the math on it like semi-recently. I forget it off the top of my head, but like it's quite a few millions of pairs of shoes sold within the last like X amount of time. And if you start to do the math on it, like you can get a tangible amount of like monies to to cover uh athlete healthcare, cover uh out of season competition testing. Like if you were to just raise the price of your shoe like five cents to ten cents, which could work kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I know that like yeah, I mean money is tight in the sport. Like I've heard of uh RDs that are introducing drug testing instead of prize money. And and I think that yeah, that's important. I don't know you know which one should come first, but yeah, establishing your anti-doping efforts is a great step. Um because you know, whether there's prize money or not, the brands have bonuses for that race, and you don't want to be caught doping and getting a brand bonus. Um yeah, some sort of funding has to come from somewhere to get out of competition testing. And um, yeah, it seems like everyone's kind of throwing ideas at the wall and yeah, nothing's stuck yet. Um I know like with uh like World Athletics was involved with World Mountain Trail Championships this year, so I think that's that brings a little hope for that out of competition testing, is that they may get involved with that. Um but yeah, hard to say.
SPEAKER_02:What's your take on it? You think we need it? I mean, obviously we're not an Olympic sport yet, like and we could talk about that and where you want the sport to go uh when we get a little bit later into the conversation, but like obviously we need uh some sort of out of season testing pool or something. We gotta do something. I mean, especially on the short trail side. Oh my god, like it's it's out of control. Uh it's it's pretty wild right now. So and yeah, a lot of races, especially in the States, dude, like nobody tests. Uh I mean, obviously Broken Arrow, but they're only testing I don't know. Like I've I'm on the board of Pikes Peak as well, and like I looked at some of the stuff and I'm like, dude, when like in 2023, I was very surprised at how little athletes were tested on at the Golden Trail race. I was like, what? So yeah, I think we definitely need uh there's definitely a call for more testing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um yeah, and you think the brands would want it to say, like, here, our athletes are clean all year round. Uh look at the shoes, it's the all it's all the shoes. Um yeah, because any you know, competent doper could get around the race day tests, um, you know, because the doping helps their recovery more or helps them build, you know, their fitness. And they don't really need it on race day per se. You just you need to make sure it's out of your system.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, so it yeah, it is it definitely is pertinent and definitely needs to happen. Um, yeah, it seems like right now it's definitely a wild card, whether people are tested or not, it's just kind of random. And I don't I mean, I don't think it's gonna catch anybody, honestly.
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_02:Unless you're really dumb. Like, I I think that I mean, even now, dude, like you saw the stuff with like BPC 157 floating around the internet, and it's like uh just the availability for even like college kids to go get that now, and that's created a whole nother thing. Like, dude, I wonder how many people in trail have been doing that for years now because it's been available. Uh it's and it's like virtually untraceable. So yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff. I've yeah, I I could do a whole other podcast on that. Um, all right, let's pivot because I don't want to spend us uh spend the whole time talking about anti-doping and I yeah, I I don't think we're gonna solve anything with it. But um dude, you just got back from Worlds, you were over there. Talk about that experience. I know it's kind of a a huge kind of left left turn from what we were talking about, but um Yeah, talk about your time out there and how it was.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Worlds was pretty awesome. Um, it was my first time going um to one of the world championships. Um yeah, it was it was really cool. It's a well-organized event, uh a lot of excitement in those towns. Um it was nothing interesting because Con Franc was a tiny town. Um, and so most of the teams were staying outside of the area. Um luckily we had a little apartment right in Ken Frank Estacion, so it was really cool. Um yeah, it's pretty exciting to see you know your favorite children's wearing your you know wearing the national kits. Um because we had we you know weren't really involved in that for too long. Um so it was kind of it was yeah, cool to see, um, cool to see that competition. The courses for the long trail and short trail were pretty wild. I ran some of the courses and it's just it was like, how are people racing on this? Really? Okay. Um yeah, especially, you know, nine, uh eight hours or nine hours into a race, just you know, off-trail grassy fields on a ski slope. It's like um, it was crazy. Yeah, super cool. Um yeah, it's cool to see those fast people run fast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um these particular takeaways other than like just the just the overall environment and stuff like that. Obviously it was your first one, but like Did it was it just like as far as the atmosphere goes, and you see all these countries competing against one another and so many people assembling in one area uh you know for the sake of the sport? Like, does it do you think this could like work as an Olympic sport? Or do you think like maybe the the world's like platform might be better?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was cool to see for sure the highest people in the sport go and race there, you know, like Tovey, um Jim and Katie. Um yeah, it was cool to see them, you know, dive into it and make it their A race for the fall and go out and go win. Yeah, to prove its legitimacy. This is super cool. Um yeah, you know, it's not as big as like UTMB week or anything. Um because it is interesting that they're only elite level races. Um you don't have, you know, you don't have uh pack middle of the Packers, back of the Packers, there's no Congo lines. It's just those people running fast. Um yeah, I think you know, once Jim and Katie showed up, it'd prove that it's a competition, it's a it's a legit competition, and I think it will be from this point on. Um, you know, next year I think I it has the potential to be a little more competitive because it is later in the calendar, and so that UTMB and um worlds double in 2027, I think will be more reasonable. Um and people I yeah, I hope people dive into it and bring even more competition to it. Um yeah, I think I think it's here to stay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I think so too. And I think it's only I mean, obviously there was a few names absent from yeah, from athletes that participated in like the UTMB weekend and stuff like that, but I I don't know. Like you I I would have never guessed like Tovey Alexander was gonna put on a performance like the one she did, and like same with Katie, like crazy, crazy performances. Um yeah, it is gonna be really interesting to see what happens when we get to South Africa, like how because I think that's November, if I remember correctly, on the 27th calendar. So it's gonna be spaced out a little bit more. And yeah, hopefully it gets a little deeper and we'll see. Like, I think that's the big question is like, is this the this is it is this gonna be like the de facto like big thing moving forward? I think that's the question though. Do brands buy in? Because it's a weird thing to get the brands to buy in if you're only wearing their shoes and you're not necessarily wearing their kit, right?
SPEAKER_01:Right. But also the thing that seemed to happen is that the federations are buying in more so than the brands, like the French team having team camps and you know, banning their athletes from competing at UTMB. Like that's cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, they're paying for those trips and they're paying for those team camps. Uh or like the Spanish Federation apparently was doing the same thing and offering huge bonuses for their athletes to finish top five, top ten. Um, you know, like 20,000 euros for top, I think it was a top five performance from the Spanish Federation.
SPEAKER_02:It's not bad.
SPEAKER_01:Something like that. Yeah, that's that's yeah, that's more bonuses than most people get in any race. Um, so I think that's a cool side of it to see the actual federations buy-in. Yeah, because if the brands are gonna slip up, then hopefully someone else takes advantage.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I don't think we're gonna have that happen on the UT US ATF side, unfortunately. Like maybe, I don't know. It would have to be like an external ex I don't even know if that would work if there would be like an external partner uh, you know, to come in and like maybe privately uh try to fund the thing outside of USATF. I don't even know if that's even possible. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um I yeah, definitely USATF could support those children a little more. Um, you know, at the same time, there are huge number of federations that athletes pay their own way to the to the dang event. Yeah, yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_02:That sucks. Skyrunning.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's yeah, yeah. Um so I think I think another thing that could happen that maybe needs to happen is you know, World Athletics forces um these federations to pay for their athletes' travel to play, pay for their uniforms. Um you know, because if you want, you know, and even like you know, pre-training trips, if you want to perform your best, you can't just go out and be there for four days, you have to be there for weeks. Yeah. And uh and see the especially at Continent Frank to see that course. That was it seemed like a lot of people who s you know invested the time to scout the course did well. Yeah. Except for Michelina.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry, Mike, I had to throw that one in there. Um no, I uh let's let's chip gears though. I do want to talk about the brand aspect in that. Like, I don't did you happen to get a chance to read Caleb Olsen's article that he wrote on Substack about worlds. He like threw out a couple different like I thought were actually like semi-constructive and like decent ideas on how to get more of the brands to just give a crap just because it seemed like I don't know, it's it a lot of it is getting buy-in from them too for for performance bonuses too, so athletes can get bonus and it gives them a little bit more of an incentive to maybe fork it forego what is the big thing in UTMB now, and maybe go do represent their country or something like that. Like, do you think there's like a world where brands actually care about that and like will bonus for something like that in the future as more and more as there's more buy-in, if you will?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. I mean, track runners are getting bonuses for world champs in their in their genre. Um, yeah, so why can't the same thing happen for trail? I don't know it seems like a silly conversation to have. Like it should be happening.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I mean, I like Word Off Legs was a little more strict this year with logos and people were duct taping logos, you know, so that's definitely a negative for the brand. But you know, track runners only have their shoes, like and then the brands are still giving them bonuses. Yeah, yeah, that's so why can't the same thing happen for trail?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Wait, people were duct taping logos. I'm I'm not aware of this. You gotta film in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of rules in terms of like logos and what how many logos logos can be on clothing. Um like Nike had to s like Nike was cover or producing shorts with only one Nike swoosh on them to give the team um like I guess logos that were on vests had to be covered up if they weren't the Federation's sponsor and they weren't to a certain size. Um yeah, if you look back, there's people with duct tape on the back of their vests covering up, you know, Hoka logos or North Face logos or Nike logo not Nike logos.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a lot of rules.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, we've definitely got to get some stuff figured out for 2027, but I guess we're headed somewhat in the right direction.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm excited for 2027. Um it's cool that it's kind of cool to have that, you know, that long-term two-year cycle in our sport that we haven't had. Um a little baby like Olympic cycle almost. It's cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was gonna bring that up. Like, what do you do? So you do like that better. I don't know, dude. I think it'd be I think it's also kind of fun if we select every year for I don't know, just because we athletes race so much and there's like it's pretty much a year-round calendar at this point. Like if we had like a de facto world championship every year, like if UTMB happens every year, it's obviously like our um the weekend is the de facto, whether it's OCC, CCC, UTMB, like those are kind of the de facto like distance championships. Like it'd be cool if we also had like a de facto world championship every year.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I don't think so. The calendar's too full. Yeah. Um, I mean, if you have if you're racing UTMB and racing a UTM qualifier, and then if you're racing a world qualifier and then world, that's full races right there. Yeah. That's crazy. And then, you know, it depends on if your Federation has resume spots or if you're racing for all those spots. Um, yeah, the counter gets full quick. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's also interesting too. I was thinking about this as far as the short draw went, like, and this is no like uh I don't know, like Toby Alexanderson obviously had like such a crazy, like insane performance. That's a different conversation. But like I think about someone like Fred friend Fred Transard, who's such a good skyrunner and is so good on terrain like that. If that was a different type of course, my question is, would Fred have been the de facto world champion? And you can kind of spin that into if this was to be an every year thing, let's say we had UTMB, right? And then similar after maybe November we had worlds. If UTMB is a more competitive race than worlds, uh someone wins UTMB and a different person wins worlds, who's really the world champion? And kind of kind of changes the conversation, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's it's definitely cool that world championships move so that way it highlights you know different aspects of trail running.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, like yeah, this see those two people with sort of that orienteering background win the short trail, and then like the 100 mile specialist, the UTV specialist, like Jim and Katie, this smash the long trail. Like those are two different two different niches of the same sport. And then like um uh Cape Town is gonna be even different. Um so it's gonna be interesting to see what specialist thrives there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. All right, I'm gonna shift gears. I want to talk about the sport in general. Like, are you stoked about where it's headed as far as like growth? Um and like kind of where it's at now and where you think it's going.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I'm just full of excitement. You know, every year it's like this is the big year, and then next year comes about and all these races happen, you're like, wait, this is the big year. And that keeps going and going and going every year. Um I uh yeah, I don't we're not gonna know how big we get until we get there. Um I'm yeah, I'm just full of excitement. I think it seems like we're at a stage where people are, you know, putting more money into the sport, like sort of like, you know, with Nike shifting their focus in ACG and going all in on trail running with the scope of ACG. Um, you know, everyone trying to build these crazy shoes. And um, yeah, I'm just full of excitement. It seems like people are slowly getting paid more, it seems like bonuses are increasing, you know, participation is increasing, people are spending millions on the sport in the States. It's pretty impressive. And at some point we'll no longer be that, you know, that niche sport we were, I truly think. Um and I think you know, more than a blip in the radar, I think trail running will like be here to stay. It'll build and build and build and you know it'll stick around. I think a lot of these a lot of these niche sports, you know, have have roller coasters, have fluctuated. Um, I don't know, thinking of like uh like surfing or or like inline skating. Yeah, skateboarding, inline skating. Things fluctuate. Um, but I think children's still on the rise.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean it's crazy, man. I literally just read an article today that they're talking there's someone's making a movie about um, I think it's uh a woman running the Badwater race, something like that. And there was uh I think the director was just at Havelina or something like that. I was like, wow, this is kind of crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, a director who's already ran ultras and has you know has a good it seems like has a good uh feel for the scene. Yeah, it's supposed to be like a some a thriller, a horror of some sort. We'll see what involving Badwater 135. Um yeah, that should be interesting. I'm sure I'm sure all of us trailrunners will be in the in the if we go see in the theaters, we'll just be like rolling our eyes.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, right. Well it's like how did our little sport just like get into the zeitgeist so quickly? Yeah, like what she hasn't even vomited yet.
SPEAKER_01:What is a depiction? She's not taking her salt. Like she's not even running on the white line at Battle Water. What is she doing?
SPEAKER_02:Well, do you think like the the sh like um just like the mom and pop races will survive? Like you think that's like a thing long term, or do you think it'll the sport will eventually get so big and so professional that'll like start to push that stuff out?
SPEAKER_01:No, I I think they'll survive. I I think each little area of the country has their own special races. Like here in Missoula, we have our own little special races. Sometimes the pros come to them, sometimes they don't. And I think it's cool to have those big races in every community. Um, you know, to see who the fastest runner is in that community. I think I think people will survive because there is a I think there's a large swath of the people in the sport that like the grassroots aspect of it. You know, they like just paying$150 or whatever and running a 50k, and you know, they know there's gonna be watermelon at every station.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which is I think that's really cool. I mean, that's grounding.
SPEAKER_02:It is. I I think we can have a world where it we coexist in kind of both uh like we can have the pointy tip of the spear in your most competitive races in the sport, and I think you can also have the race where like there's not even timing chips, and people are just like writing down the time when you go and cross the finish line. Uh yeah, it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. Um all right, dude. We're almost at about an hour. Pretty pretty close to it now. I think we're good. I think we covered most of it. What do you think? Is there anything you want to get to that we you don't think we've covered?
SPEAKER_01:Oh man.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I'd be dude.
SPEAKER_02:I could do two hours if we if you get me talking.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I think you know, there's a lot of stuff I still want to learn this, learn in the sport. Um like, you know, one big topic is European versus American contracts. Um, all right. Yeah, that's a huge topic. Um yeah, I mean, I think I think Americans are doing pretty well overall.
SPEAKER_02:You think so I've heard this that we are doing better compared to the Europeans. That and it I don't know, like the only thing I could take is kind of like short trail versus uh I just know it's valued a little bit differently, but overall Americans are yeah, doing substantially better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if you know if we're leading the way, then we're leading the way, which is kind of it's kind of interesting when Europe you know when Europe has so much more history and in both the short trail and long trail in the sport. Um but I think that just goes along with you know our brands where they want to spend money. Um people are willing to spend more money in the sport in the States. Um yeah, there's a lot more going on here. That's another thing about you know, when I went to Cannes Frank in Spain is that everybody is way more casual about trail running. Um people are going out running their early morning runs are start at 10 a.m. Like it's pretty casual. I think that's that's pretty reflective in their culture overall, and then in their uh you know, in their professional contracts and their careers, it's just just different.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Like what do you think as far I mean I guess it's just more dollars spent overall, you think more invested in America and the sport? Or do you think it's more in Europe overall?
SPEAKER_01:Oh I would say I think it's probably more in the states. I think. Um Yeah, especially it seems like these American-based companies are just trying to grow, grow, grow. And so they are investing more and more and more. Um yeah, that's what I that's the that's the roots of it that I would think.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think the dollars, I mean, this is a I mean, this is a hard question to answer, but like as far as the dollar, I think just think of the pie chart, right? Like, how much of that do you think goes to athletes, how much goes to media and like their marketing budget, how much of that goes to shareholders? Like, do you have an idea of like how much of that actually goes to the athletes as far as like for every X amount that you make as a I don't know, as a brand, uh, what you can divvy back kind of like reinvested as far as like capital expenditure?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's pretty small. That's just my feeling. I don't have any facts, but I think it's pretty small. Um, you know, I think I still think most trilunners are you know signing signing contracts that are 20 grand is probably the average. 10 to 20 is the average. Um, like a few weeks ago I looked at that old um survey from Ultrarunner Mag when they surveyed the pro runners and what they made. Um back then I think the average was like yeah, 10 to 15. Um yeah, I definitely think that that type of survey needs to happen again. Yes. So we can get so you know, not so only people in the sport can get a good footing in the data, but I think it's important for you know the larger audience just to know you know what their favorite trail runner is making. Um because I like it's pretty interesting, you know, most of the professional trail runners are the poorest people in the start line. Usually. Like, yeah, usually. It's I don't know, yeah. One of my favorite quotes, I don't remember who said it, is that your favorite trail your it was your favorite runner is poor. Um and I think that that's I mean that's an interesting part of our sport, is that it has it kind of seen as more of like a hobby, like a passion. Like you should do it because you love to do it, you shouldn't do it because you want to get paid.
SPEAKER_02:Um the soul sport aspect. Well, dude, I I don't know if you know the statistic, but like I think it was the iron they surveyed like Iron Man athletes, uh not professionals, but just like the average uh person that like participates in Iron Man. I think like The average salary is like well over 100-150,000, somewhere in that range. Like it's it's relatively high. And you compare that to like uh you just compare the average participant, and then you think of like what the average trailrunner is making, like on a start line, it's uh 50, 60, 70% less. It's absolutely crazy. Uh it's yeah, I don't know. What do you think about like I don't know, you think about the NFL, you think about NBA and like most of these large organizations, and like contracts are very um out there, spoken about, discussed. We have a lot of NDAs behind our stuff. Uh we can't really talk about anything unless it's behind closed doors, and then we're still not supposed to talk about it. Do you think there should be NDAs or do you think people should be allowed to talk?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think ideally there shouldn't be NDAs. But I think right now it's just the reality of the sport. I like everybody kind of knows what everyone else is making, but you're not allowed to say anything. It's the weirdest thing. Um but for the time being, I think there'll be NDAs unless like PTRA steps up big time and and petitions against it. Um Yeah, and I don't know the reason why NDA started to begin with. You know, everyone people say it's because the brands don't want people to know how little they pay their athletes, but I d I don't know if that's true. Um yeah, it's interesting. And I um, you know, people worry about people's feelings getting hurt, and I think that is a possibility with trail running where it is in the sport right now. Is you're able to, you know, people that are slower than you are able to negotiate beer contracts, not just because of their performances, but because of other factors, other variables. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean, ideally it would be cool to see you know your podcast talk about so-and-so signing this amount, and you know, and Finn's podcast talk about so-and-so signing this many years and this bonus, and that would be cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And maybe in a few years that'll happen. But um, yeah, I'd be curious also to know like whether you know those Iron Man pro athletes are signing NDAs or um these other sort of niche areas are signing NDAs as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, it's weird, man. Like it's it's weird because it's like in the zeitgeist. Like last year, Kelly Newland helped Tara get the big contract, and like it was like assumed but not assumed, but an article came out and like there was a figure thrown out there or a range of a figure, and it was like, okay, so that kind of breaks an NDA unless it's like very specific. It it gets weird, right? Where it's like we're kind of getting in the direction where more stuff is being open. Also, dude, I talk to so many athletes, and people are like so nice and like open and like throw numbers out there, and just like, dude, I don't feel comfortable like sharing like stuff like that. That's weird like to have that conversation. But people feel comfortable and like feel like talking about it. So I feel like, yeah, it would be cool. It would be great from a podcast perspective. Yeah, if we sign, I don't know, let's say I'm just gonna throw a random athlete out there and say, you know, Jane Doe makes, I don't know, signs a deal with Hoker for 600,000 a year or something like that. Like it would be great to celebrate that athlete. Um, but yeah, we can't yeah, the conversation.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's why like ultra um allow that as a sort of like a marketing piece. Like, look at us, we're we're supporting our athletes. Um you know, we're supporting a a woman athlete who did the AT this fast. Like, look at us, this is cool. So I think that was that was a cool move for them in terms of a marketing aspect. Um yeah, but I was I would have loved to see an exact number. Yeah. And you know, like, and she's getting health care and this much travel. Um, yeah, that would have been cool to see. And I always wonder, you know, with Mothe's contracts being only 10,000 to 20,000. I don't it would I would wonder if a brand would, you know, take legal actions against someone for a contract that's only 10 grand. What are you gonna sue me for, dude?
SPEAKER_02:Like you're gonna take my my my van?
SPEAKER_01:Like yeah, yeah, you're gonna spend 10 grand suing me over my 10 grand contract? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I yeah, who knows? Who knows? It just it depends on yeah. I don't know, dude. I've dealt with some really nasty corporate lawyers like in in my job, like in yeah, you'd be surprised on like how weird the corporate world is with some of that stuff. Uh but yeah, it it's it's interesting. I I don't know. Um yeah, I don't know. What what do you want to pivot into next? What other topics do you think we gotta get into?
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I just yeah, I mean, talking about athlete pay, I think there's this a lot of opportunity for those non-endemic sponsorships. Um I guess I saw a photo of uh Baptiste who won Daniel Defu. Yeah, he had an ad on the back of his vest for Back Market, which is like electronics resale company. It was on the back of his vest, so that's kind of funny. But I was like, wow, like how A, how did he get that how did he get that connection? And B, how much did they pay for that ad that was you know, like on the back of his vest? Like that's that's cool. And I think there's more opportunities there for the for that. Um and it's just about I mean that's kind of what I'm excited to tackle is finding those opportunities and seeking them out and seeing you know what areas of the economy likes trail running.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, dude, I think there's more money for athletes going that direction. Like, I don't know, you see I've seen more and more now. Um, what is the the Ford Bronco uh ambassadors? I'm seeing that pop up more and more, and that's discussed. Like I know Julian Carr has been doing that for a while and a bunch of other athletes. And um, yeah, like we need more cars, we need more just stuff. Like it would be a lot of fun because I I think it the ability for athletes to make infinitely more will be there with the non-endemic brands.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think more so than you know, contacting the large corporations, it's about like going to your local dealership and like maybe getting a lease for a year. I don't know. Um, just like you know, because they would love, I feel like a mountain town Toyota dealership would love to support a local pro who drives the trailheads in their Tacoma.
SPEAKER_02:Like, dude, if I could if I could get like Dave's Hot Chicken or like In N Out Burger to like sponsor me in some way, shape, or form, I'd be so down, it'd be amazing.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, I mean it just takes time, it just takes connections to find those those unique opportunities. Um and I feel like as the sport grows, it'll they'll they'll reveal themselves. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I anything that sticks out to you brand wise, like what what do you think would be I don't know, that was something that we can do. Like, I don't know. I hate like the finance world and the banking world, but like I feel like there's so much money there and it's so untapped. Like I know what is it? Um is it UBS? I think sponsors series and all. So I'm surprised we don't have more bank sponsored uh like athletes in Europe, which would be interesting, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think like Cape Town has a bank sponsor.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I mean, obviously a bank wouldn't be cool, but like like uh like a local RV dealership to get, you know, uh Winnebago. Um I think even like rather than big banks like your local bank, um, your local credit union might have opportunities. Um, like like you know, the Mountain Town Tourism Councils and the tourism initiatives would would love pictures of runners out in the mountains. Like that's that's a huge draw. Um, especially when you say, you know, trail runners spend X amount of dollars on travel and X amount of dollars yearly on their sport. Why don't we bring some of them here? Like you know, like fly fishing in here in Montana is a marketing asset for travel. You know, come to Missoula and fly fish. And why not come to Missoula and trail run? Um Yeah, so I think those those tourism councils are pretty cool. Um yeah, like it's the cool thing because the the opportunities are pretty endless.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I think and I think it'll start to trickle in as we go, as as everything expands. I mean, you saw like court like I don't know, Kodiak cakes, even like which is I don't know, you can I guess they're more of an adjacent brand, still kind of non-endemic. Like even the food color like food stuff is cool too. So yeah, it's gonna be fun to see more brands kind of trickle in as we go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I mean that's I mean that's the cool thing about us not having rules for sponsor logos, is that you could put a giant ad on the back of your vest and no one will stop you. Yeah, you could put a giant logo on the back of your shorts. Like, go ahead, throw out the craziest idea, and um it's I guess it's fine.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I mean, dude, I remember like when the NBA adopted like the uh they started putting sponsor logos on their jerseys and everybody was like up and up, and now it's like a it's like commonly accepted thing, like it's on everyone's jersey and nobody really cares anymore. Yeah, I it's it's interesting to me, especially on the European side. If dude's got like all kinds of stuff on his vest and and his shorts, like that's that's it's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it seems like the European side is into it. Like you see like region sponsoring runners, you know, like CD and Germont have a sponsor for the region they live in, or mountains ski resorts sponsor runners, you know, people that ski mow in the winter run in the summer, they have those sponsorships. Um yeah, and you know, Europe's unique because they have those local clubs that'll sponsor troll runners, your local sporting club. Um yeah, that's something we definitely don't have in the States that's a little definitely unique to that to that region.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh for sure.
SPEAKER_01:All right, dude.
SPEAKER_02:I think I'm gonna I think we're gonna I think we hit it all. I'm gonna uh say thanks so much for coming on the pod. I really appreciate it. It's a great conversation and thanks, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thanks for having me. Uh yeah, I'm looking forward to 2026. If anybody wants to chat, my uh inbox is open.
SPEAKER_02:All right, sweet, dude. Appreciate it. Yeah, trailhead athlete management. I'll have it linked in the show notes and uh your contact information as well. And yeah, appreciate it, dude. Thanks, James. Yeah, dude. Okay, I think we're good. Sweet. Sometimes this lags a little bit. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Um, I want to thank Nick so much for coming on. Uh great guy. Um, lots of good question answering there. I know I kind of threw a barrage at him and was kind of all over the place uh like I normally am with my questions. And uh Nick was a champ and gave some really concise, really educated, well thought out stuff. And uh yeah, the guy is definitely just a uh just a really um you know thought, thought, thought leader. There we go. Thought leader in the sport. That's what I was going for. Um guys, the best way you could support Nick is to find him on Instagram, give him a follow. If you are an athlete right now looking for representation, um you can find him at Trailhead Athlete Management, both on Instagram as well as LinkedIn, as well as their website. All of this is going to be linked in the show notes. Um if you like Nick as a guy and want to follow him, you can find him at Nick Cornell on Instagram and give him a follow there as well. Guy's an amazing athlete in his own right, and uh definitely has a lot to give to the world uh from an athlete perspective as well. So those are both the places you can find them. Like I said, if you're looking for representation, check out Trailhead Athlete Management. I think don't think you can go wrong there. Um yeah, all good stuff. Guys, if you enjoyed the podcast and you're continuing to enjoy it, and we're trying to grow and evolve here and do new things and change and uh I don't know, turn this thing in a fun direction. Um, give us some support. The best way you can support us is to give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcasts. Um we are trying to grow that YouTube channel. So find us on YouTube and give us a subs uh a subscription. Subscribe on that. That's the only way you're gonna be able to watch the videos. I started rolling out the videos on Spotify and just it's harder to track the numbers and harder to track stuff that way, so because it doesn't spit it out to uh I don't know, it's a lot of technical shit. But like um YouTube. Check us out on YouTube. I think that's a channel I really want to start growing, uh, and that's where I'm gonna start putting the video-based episodes um so you guys can watch us on there as well. Um and yeah, if you guys also want to support our brand partner, support Ultimate Direction, if you go on head on over to ultimatedirection.com, use code Steep StuffPod. That's right, one word Steep StuffPod at checkout for 25% off your cart. It's the holiday season, guys. Um if you have a loved one, hopefully you all do, um, and you want to get them something uh for the trails, use code Steep Stuff Pod for 25% off. They've got some great vests, belts, and apparel out there, and I think you guys are gonna be excited. And there's some new stuff coming down the pipeline too. Hopefully, I get more information on that soon. So without further ado, thank you guys. Hope you enjoy your week.
