#138 - Makena Morley

A road racer with big engine and bigger grit, Makena Morley decided to test the mountains—and then turned a curious experiment into a statement season. We go all the way back to Maui and Montana, through a high-pressure collegiate career at Colorado, and into the realities of turning pro during Covid. Then the pivot: why ASICS’ support opened the door to trails, how Bozeman and Montana State became her training backbone, and what it took to blend threshold speed with the chaos of technical terrain.

Makena breaks down the moment Kodiak nearly unraveled—a missed turn, minutes lost, and a mental reset from chasing time to hunting the win. She explains how trail pacing lives in effort, not pace; how VKs mimic the misery of a 5K at altitude; and why nutrition and hydration need to be tighter once you’re racing beyond marathon duration. We talk SIS gels, Skratch Superfuel, cramp control, and keeping heart rate near low threshold to ride the up-down rhythm without detonating. She also shares self-coaching insights: writing four-month blocks, moving workouts when the body says no, and using heart rate as a guardrail rather than a governor.

Looking forward, we map a smart, exciting calendar: half marathons to sharpen, runnable 50Ks like Canyons to leverage road speed, and a technical progression toward OCC in Chamonix. Golden Trail and Cirque Series sit on the radar as skill-building playgrounds, tempered by timing and travel. The theme running through it all is joy—how switching surfaces revived hunger, built durability, and made big goals feel possible again.

If this story fires you up, hit follow, share the episode with a friend who needs a nudge to try something new, and leave a quick review so more athletes can find the show.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Host Intro And McKenna’s Breakout Season
• 2:50 Early Life In Hawaii And Montana
• 4:22 Family Influence And First Steps In Running
• 6:28 College Choices And Colorado Transfer
• 8:58 Team Culture, Growth, And Academics
• 11:24 Teammates, Mentors, And Trail Crossovers
• 14:20 Turning Pro During Covid And Choosing ASICS
• 17:20 Why Bozeman Over Boulder
• 19:48 Training Partners And MSU Workouts
• 22:00 ASICS Support And Moving To Trails
• 24:12 Why Trails Rekindled Road Motivation
• 26:00 VK Lessons And Short Vs Long Trail Plans
• 28:14 Balancing Speed, Strength, And Cross-Training
• 31:18 Montana Outdoors, Bears, And Safety
• 35:12 Coaching Shifts And Self-Coaching Approach
• 38:04 Race Calendar: US Cross, Broken Arrow, Canyons
• 40:00 Kodiak 50K: Entry, Stakes, And Strategy
• 42:08 Kodiak Race Chaos: Wrong Turn And Comeback
• 46:20 Effort, Altitude, And Pacing On Trails
• 49:12 Nutrition, Cramping, And Hydration Takeaways
• 51:32 Heart Rate, Threshold, And Training Tools
• 53:20 Golden Trail, Cirque Series, And OCC Plans
• 56:10 Closing Thoughts, Shoutouts, And CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome back to this Deep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome McKenna Morally to the show. McKenna is a professional runner for ATIC, actually the first uh ATICs athlete I have ever had on the pod, so I was super excited to get to chat about ATICs and their shoes and whatnot. And up until this point, McKenna had made her name on the roads. This year in 2025, however, was a little bit different. She decided to split time between the roads and the trails, where she had an absolutely dominant performance a set of dominant performances that included wins of the Don't Fence Being 25K, the Rut Vertical Kilometer, and then the Kodiak 50K, which is where you might know her name from. Not just dominant wins, like absolute like world beater dominant wins, because she got in the top 10 of every race she ran uh and beat up on a good amount of elite men. So, like I said, she has all the makings to be a household name in the sport, and it's gonna be really cool to see her career blossom over the next few years as she decides to take on more um just more competitive races on a on a world stage and trail. Um it was fun to chat though. We caught up on all the stuff that she really enjoyed from the season, um, including a lot of uh ups and downs throughout her race at the Kodiak 50K that we debriefed, um, what it's like racing a vertical kilometer and what she took away from that, uh, and just uh you know why the trails kind of fit her better right now and where she's at in her career. So I really enjoyed this one. This was a great conversation, hopefully the first conversation of many. It's gonna be really fun to see McKenna uh and her career just grow over the next few years. So without further ado, McKenna Morley. How's it going?

SPEAKER_00: 2:51

Good. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 2:54

Yeah, yeah. I want to throw a big shout out before we get started uh to Jonathan for helping connect us. I'm just so excited to have you on. I feel like after following your your trail races this summer, I was like, oh, this is a perfect kind of segue to be able to have you on for a conversation. So stoked to do this.

SPEAKER_00: 3:10

Thank you. I know, excited. Yeah, new to the trail world.

SPEAKER_01: 3:13

So Yeah, yeah. Well, we're gonna talk a lot about that. What's up? Love it. Ask you a million questions and how you're liking it so far. Um, I guess before we get started, like maybe give me like the five-minute elevator pitch. Like, start with Hawaii. Let's let's talk about like where you came from and where you're at now.

SPEAKER_00: 3:31

Okay, amazing. Try to make it chore. Um, but yeah, basically I grew up, I was born and raised in Maui, Hawaii. Um, we my parents moved there. My dad wanted to windsurf. So, you know, not really any like ties to Hawaii, just like wanted to windsurf. Um, moved back to Montana when I was seven. Um, my parents are both from Montana, so came back here and uh we were from the from the Flathead Valley uh originally. And so then uh yeah, I kind of started running when I was in sixth grade, really because I was actually like really out of shape, and my mom was like very worried for me. So she was like, you need to run um to get in shape. And I was like, Oh, I hate running. Um, and you know, I kind of started out as like a sprinter because I was like, that's cooler, you know? Um, and then kind of got into distance running and uh kind of fell in love with it. I was became kind of successful in middle school, and I think that always helps you fall in love with something a little faster. Um, and then yeah, kind of took it from there um and then ran at the University of Colorado uh for college, and then um now I run professionally for A6 and I'm based out of Bozeman, Montana. So kind of long story. Yeah, or that was pretty short, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 4:32

Amazing, amazing. I appreciate that. I because I feel like yeah, it's perfect to get the audience kind of recapped on you as the person. I want to talk about your just your upbringing with like mom and dad as far as like being heavy influences. I know I understand your dad was a sprinter and mom also had a a distance background as well. Can you talk about just how much of an influence that was on you and maybe your siblings as well, uh kind of growing up and getting into running?

SPEAKER_00: 4:56

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, my dad sprinted in high school. He sprinted at the or Montana State University here in Bozeman uh for a couple years. So he was like definitely more of that like short, fast Twitch guy. And then my mom, she kind of got into running, you know, more is just to be like become fit. Um she'd got into like those local fun runs and stuff. So she was the one who kind of started, you know, making running, like long distance running look fun to us. Even my dad, we were all like, we'd go to, I think the first big race she did, still one of like my family's favorite races, is Bloomsday um in Spokane, Washington. And we went to watch her and we were like, whoa, this thing is like massive and it's so cool, and all these people are doing it. So um she then my dad became curious, and then it kind of around that time I was going into middle school and I had the opportunity to join um middle school cross-country. So uh I was also fairly out of shape, and my parents were like, okay, let's get her into something that will, you know, let's like get her, get her in good shape. Um, and I like I think I had run a president's physical fitness test, you know, at some point, did a mile, and it went like okay. So they were like, okay, you know, she might be okay at this sport. Um, but yeah, honestly, like my dad and I both really started distance running around the same time. So, you know, he's been like a huge me and him have like quite a bond with that where we kind of started it together. Um, my brother and sister kind of came along a year or so after that, and so we all kind of ran together. But you know, my mom, her name is Jill, she's the she's the real starter of this whole long distance running thing in the family.

SPEAKER_01: 6:20

Shout out to Jill. They're awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

Yeah, go Jill. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:24

Um, all right, let's shift gears. I want to talk about going to college. I know you started your career in Montana at the University of Montana for college first and then transferred over to the University of Colorado. What was it like, especially like uh with your experience and getting really good in high school and then transitioning to the collegiate level? What was that like for you? Were you heavily recruited out of high school? Was there a lot of options for you? Like, what was the reason to stay close to home? Stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:52

Yeah, I mean, I think I was pretty heavily recruited out of high school. You know, I was one of the better high schoolers, especially in cross-country, coming out of the nation. So I think, you know, I I'm kind of a homebody and I love Montana. So I definitely, you know, talked to the other schools. I even did talk to University of Colorado too at the beginning, and I kind of was just like, oh, it's a little far away. Uh and you know, I kind of ultimately chose University of Montana mostly because it was close. Um kind of having not a great experience there with the coach. So I moved away and went to University of Colorado. But that honestly was a pretty big jump for me. I feel like, you know, you know, me and a couple of other people that I was like, you know, we were kind of doing really well at Foot Locker Nationals, those type of high school meets in high school. And then we came to college and you're like, whoa, this is a different animal. Um, like there's, you know, 150 people as fast as you. And so I think that was definitely like a big jump coming from, especially Montana, where, you know, the state has some good runners, but there's not, you know, a huge depth of it. And so I think, you know, coming into a, you know, a place where you're like, whoa, okay, I'm like pretty far down the totem pole now, and having to work into that was like, I think a really growing experience. And um, especially when I transferred to University of Colorado, that was great because, you know, not only you know, there's a lot of people faster than you in the collegiate level, there's a lot of people on your team who are also a lot better than you. Um, so I think that was like huge and like learning how to like be with teammates. You know, I'd never really had other than my siblings, I hadn't really like had teammates that, you know, you run with. So that was like, I think a really big part of me growing into um, you know, myself as a runner and learning a lot was was making that kind of step into University of Colorado. Um, but yeah, once once you kind of got learned the team atmosphere and learned how to like race with other people out there, it was like it was great.

unknown: 8:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:31

So that's interesting to me because I've met so many folks that competed very, I mean, Iowa State and like a lot of very like uh prestigious universities at the D1 level. And it's very mixed. Like a lot of people hated their college experience. A lot of people had great experiences as well. Um, just for you, both as an athlete and a student, would you grade it A plus uh B? Like what would you grade it as if you had to look back on the experience and say I got a great experience here, or was it difficult?

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

I would say A, because I feel like I learned a lot from it. It was very difficult at times. Not gonna say it wasn't, you know, there's always stuff that happens on collegiate teams that are like a little iffy. Uh and so I feel like, you know, you're just kind of, you know, you learn a lot. I think from my teammates, it was a very like, you know, a lot of my best friends are from university on the team. Um I still am like very good friends with them to this day. So that has been huge, you know, those like friendships that you make in relationships. But I mean it's also a pretty cutthroat environment. So I think it's something, you know, that's day to day, like you teaches you a lot and you become, you know, it it can it can either like destroy you or you can be okay. Uh and I think luckily I became okay um in it, which is good. I don't really know why. Lucked out. Um, but yeah, I would say in A, like, you know, school was great. Um, I you know, I liked I majored in anthropology and like English creative writing. So um I'm definitely more of like a writer of that type of side, um, which, you know, great schooling experience. And then yeah, the the team, there was definitely like times that was very hard, but I think it, you know, made me grow as an athlete.

SPEAKER_01: 10:02

So amazing. Can you talk about? I mean, I I think the trail world that listens to this podcast would be familiar with a few names like Aaron Clark, Adam Peterman, a lot of your schoolmates and teammates uh at the University of Colorado. Can you can you talk a little bit about um, you know, just connecting with them? Did you know them before, or did you get to meet them when you got to the university? Like how how did that play out?

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

Yeah, great question. I mean, I one of the big reasons I kind of even looked at University of Colorado when I was transferring was I was very good friends with like Adam, um, my boyfriend, my Zach Perrin, he was there. And then there was another Missoula kid named Chris Herrick. Um, and they were all in in at University of Colorado. So I was like, well, I know these guys really well. So it was like very nice, a kind of a seamless transition to be able to come into University of Colorado and like have these people who you know I kind of looked up to and known pretty much all through, you know, middle school and high school. Uh and then Erin Clark, I did not know before I came, but I remember her, I remember I also thought I was just telling her this recently, I thought she was like six feet tall because all I saw of her was posters, you know. I'm like, oh my gosh, this girl is six feet tall, and she's like in an insane runner, and I was like so intimidated by her. Um and then I got there, I'm like, oh, she's not that tall. She's like five, five, um, or five, six. I don't know how tall she is. Um, but it was so so I did not know her until I got there. But honestly, Erin's one of my best friends. She is one of those friendships that you know I made in college and like continue to have as one of my best friends. And um, she was a huge mentor to me, you know. She was two years older than me, and you know, I kind of really followed in her footsteps. She's just an incredible racer, um, you know, a very good teammate, and just, you know, just good at you know everything that has to do with running. Um, so she was a big person that I learned from uh in college, but you did not know her previously.

SPEAKER_01: 11:42

So cool. I I just find it so interesting and neat that like a lot of the names that pop up, and even like, wait, were you there along the same time Tabor was there? Tabor Shaw?

SPEAKER_00: 11:50

Yes, Tabor and I was age. Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. I think she's like, I know everybody, no, Tabor came in and then she like took a little bit of a break from school for a second. So I think she's technically like a year below me in school, but me and her the same, like we're the same age. So yeah, I know Tabor very well.

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

That's funny. What a small world. Uh what was I don't know. I I want to shift gears too to talking about like the the professional aspect of it. As you're getting out of college, obviously you graduated from college at kind of a crazy time, 2020, 2021 era. And at that time you're you're obviously looking just deciding to go professional, looking for a pro contract. Could you talk about that time in your life and kind of uh just how crazy it was? It was just a different time in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 12:34

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I yeah, graduated in 2020. So I guess like my last, I don't even know how long was not, you know, we were kind of remote for school, so graduated online. Um, and yeah, it was like a really weird time. So I feel like we were kind of mourning the loss of, you know, not having uh an outdoor season. Cause I think, you know, for a long time we I was actually at Indoor Nationals, uh, didn't get to race, but we were there when they called off everything. Um, and so it was like one of the it was just kind of a crazy time where you were just like, man, I'm done. Like there's not really any like, you know, no like whistles or like, you know, anything big. Um, so that was interesting, kind of just like getting over that. And I think it, you know, honestly, there was a little bit of a silver lining in that where, you know, you missed that whole indoor and outdoor season, but then you, you know, you kind of got way more time to like actually work with brands and talk to them. Whereas like usually it's like, you know, you like get an agent and then you've you've got two weeks and you're like signed and it's like all super fast and condensed. Whereas like, you know, I think we all had, you know, kind of like multiple months. Like we talked to the, you know, oh my I call it like dating agents. You almost feel like you are. You like talk to them, see it's when you like the most. Um, and then you find an agent, and then yeah, and then I feel like, you know, I I work with Ray Flynn and then you know, they kind of helped, you know, me work with different brands. Um, but it was great. It kind of like prolonged the process and made it like a little bit less stressful um for it being COVID. So yeah, and then I just you know talked to multiple brands and ultimately I kind of wanted to be um, I wanted to be a little bit more on my own. Like I love having a team, um, but I knew I wanted to be back in Montana at some point. And I originally actually went to Boise first, Idaho, to train with uh Emma Bates for a couple of months and then uh ended up coming to Bozeman, Montana. But yeah, I wanted a brand that you know would allow me to kind of pick and choose where I was at, and ASICs was was that brand. So um yeah, that's kind of that's how I picked them, and they've been great ever since. So yeah. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

That's amazing. Well, I I have so many ASICs questions just because I'm especially from the trail side, I'm just amazed what they've been able to do recently.

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

And oh yeah, they're doing good.

SPEAKER_01: 14:28

Before we get to ASICs, I do have a question. Why I just think of like so many athletes coming out of UC Boulder um as far as on the running scene. A lot of athletes stay in Colorado. What was the what was the pool to um I guess go to Bozeman? Was it more family? Was it friends? Like, what was the reason?

SPEAKER_00: 14:47

Yeah, good question. I mean, Colorado to me is like it's like it's it's kind of like Montana, but I like Montana more. Oh, you're from Colorado, so I know I or you're in Colorado, so I love Colorado. Um but I pretty much just always kind of was like, I mean, I love Colorado, it's an amazing place to go to school, amazing place to go visit. Honestly, it's probably a better place to train because you it's you know, it's a little bit less wintery. I mean you guys get really harsh winters, but like it's a little bit better sometimes than you know, Bozeman is at least. And so um I feel like I just kind of was wanting, you know, I just love Montana. It sounds kind of funny, but I just was like, I want to come back. Um, and then yeah, honestly, family's huge too. I'm pretty close with my family. So being within like, you know, two to four hours or five hours of my family was a pretty big thing for me. So yeah, that's why I wanted to come back. It was definitely a move that was a little bit scarier just because, like, you know, there's not as many people to train with here. There's, you know, the it's definitely worse. Like the winners are suck um for running. And so I think it was one of those moves where I was like, hey, let's try it. Let's try coming back home as a professional runner. Like in high school it worked, but I wasn't running very many miles in high school. So like let's see how this works as a professional. And it's it's been okay. I've definitely had some ups and downs, you know, with that. But yeah, the big poll was just, you know, family. Um, but Colorado is awesome. Whenever, every time I visit, I'm like, ah, this is pretty nice here. I know why people like it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:58

It's uh, you know, there's trade-offs. It's I mean, I have to be honest with you, like that. Why I I find Wyoming and Montana, I personally and like Idaho, kind of like the three of those better than Colorado, even though I live here. But it's always like the grass is always greener on the other side, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 16:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 16:12

You know, there's trade-offs.

SPEAKER_00: 16:14

Um there's a little less density, there's a little less people.

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

Yes, that I think that's what I'm getting at. Yeah, it's the it's the amount of tourists. Um what is it like as far as training partners and having people to run with? I know Grayson Murphy has kind of been I know she, I think she's back in Bozeman, is that correct? Or back in Montana? I know she's had a heavily like you guys have trained together. I've seen even on Instagram you guys on runs and stuff like that, and it's been talked about. Um has has she been a training partner in the past? And and how has that kind of worked as far as training, finding training partners, like where you're living?

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Yeah, honestly, when I first came to Bozeman, I think we moved here in September, October of 2020. Um, I just did like was briefly in Boise, then came here. And Grayson was actually a big poll because she was living here in 2020 at the time. And so I was like, you know, I've got, you know, an immediate person I can train with. We didn't know each other super, super well, but we had raised because we were both in Pac-12. Um, and so we had like raced each other in college multiple times and knew of each other. Um, and so when I came here, I kind of immediately started training with her. Uh, she was doing, you know, at that point it was kind of winter time. So she was doing a lot of road running and track running. So, you know, we did a lot of stuff together. Um, she ended up leaving, I think, May of 2021. So we weren't actually in bosom for that long together at first. Um, but yeah, after she left, I started working with, I mean, as soon as I moved here, I started working with the um MSU coach, Lyle Wees. And so he was my coach for about four-ish years, maybe just over. Um, and so I would work out a lot with the MSU team, which honestly was like huge. Like I guess I didn't have a team anymore, but I kind of did because I kind of just came and started working out with like a lot of times I'd run with the MSU guys team. If I could keep up, I would just try to be like tagging along. Um, and so that was like I think really good for me to come from college and not just like immediately have to be by myself. Um, and to have someone like Grayson, who had been running professionally for a couple of years already as a mentor, and then also to have like this big group of people that I could kind of jump in with whenever, you know, worked and fit in. Uh so yeah, so you know, honestly for like four years I trained with pretty much with just Montana State University, um, which was great. So that that was always like a very helpful thing to have.

SPEAKER_01: 18:11

Super cool. What was it like as far as like training with them? Like, do you can you like access the facilities? Like you can use all their weight room and stuff like that. Like is it pretty much like just like being an athlete like on the team, kind of?

SPEAKER_00: 18:22

Yeah, I kind of I didn't really use their weight room or anything like that, but I just kind of I would mostly you could use the indoor track whenever um and I usually would just go when they went too. Um and I also was like assist kind of volunteer assistant coaching, so I get to travel with them a ton, which was awesome. So I feel like I was like kind of a mentor for them, but also could run with them, which was like really amazing and like helped me as a runner a ton. But yeah, I pretty much could use all the stuff, which was very convenient because I was like, hey, I need I need an indoor track, it's uh negative 10 outside. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:51

That's amazing. All right, let's shift gears. I I do want to get into ASICs. I find it so cool um just because I think you're the only American trail-ish A6 athlete right now, ish.

SPEAKER_00: 19:05

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:06

Yeah, but let's talk about that. So you signed this professional contract, you're on the roads mostly, and this was the year you came over and you started doing I mean we'll talk about your season. Obviously, it was super dominant, and you kind of did, you know, a little bit of both. Are are how does that work as far as like you as a professional? Like, are is that totally fine? Like with you to be able to mix it up on the trails and the track? Like, is that supported?

SPEAKER_00: 19:28

Yeah, I mean, that's what was like amazing, love ASICs. Um, you know, I work with Ben Caesar, he's the guy who I work with at ASICs, and um, I was kind of nervous, you know, to like bring it up. I kind of, you know, I uh waited till I think I think it was May or something this last year. Um, and I had been intrigued because you know, I've you know, my boyfriend runs 100K's Adam and Aaron, you know, I go see them running 100K, 100 miles, and I'm like, ooh, this is fairly intriguing. Uh and I was like, for a while, I was like, no, dumb, not doing that. Um, and then it was like finally it kind of got to me. I was like, oh, you know, it looks kind of fun. Uh and I do train on trails a lot too. So I was just like, you know, it kind of makes sense as a kid growing up. Like I used to love to, we did like these trail races straight up big mountain, the ski hills. So I was like, hmm, makes sense. Um and so, but I wanted to kind of do a trail run race first, a local one to like see how it went. Because I was like, if this is terrible, I'm gonna double, you know, rethink this decision. Um, and so it went pretty good. And I was like, okay, I just did one in Helena, Montana, which was super fun, hour and a half away from here. Um, and then I was like, you know what? I feel like that was decent. I don't really know what I'm looking at. So like I think it went well. Uh and so then I was like, you know, I'll reach out to Ben Caesar uh with A6, and he was so supportive. Like it was they they've been amazing. Like he was super stoked about it. I think, you know, their trail issues have come a long way, like all their stuff has come pretty far. So I think they were pretty excited to have somebody like, you know, that's already with them that would be excited to kind of jump into the trail scene. Um and they've been like supportive, they've you know, pretty much kind of left it up to me whether or not I want to continue to do roads or if I want to do trail or if I want to do a mix of both. Um, I I do want to do a mix of both still, so I definitely will be doing some, you know, I don't know if it's gonna be 50-50 or you know, 30-70. Um, but I definitely kind of want to do, you know, do both. But they've been like so supportive, which is which has been really helpful with this.

SPEAKER_01: 21:15

So cool. Well, and I think it's a super doable thing. And it, at least for short trail, I can say it seems to work out really well. I mean, now you've seen obviously Grayson was kind of the as far as on the trail side, kind of paved the way. Um, you know, Anna Gibson. There's plenty of women out there that are so strong on both sides that are able to do it and have successful careers doing it. I just I'm really excited to, you know, especially after the season that you just had, to see you out here crushing. And I'll and I'll just speak for and let me know if I missed any of these. You raised Don't Fence Win, which is a toy. Oh yeah, my first one. Second overall, first place. Uh you raised Kodiak, obviously. We'll we'll get into Kodiak, we'll talk about that in a little bit. And then I think the one that stuck out for me the most, just because like I love the mountain classics in the VKs, is yo, like fifth place overall at the Rut VK, like and first place woman, and then you beat Joan by a minute. Poor Joan.

SPEAKER_00: 22:10

I know. I know.

unknown: 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Hey, you do it, wasn't he? You do all three, right? Yeah, I feel like that. Did he do the trifecta? Yeah, so that's okay. He was he was probably taking it easy.

SPEAKER_01: 22:20

Um but yeah, just I mean, what an insane, like just a little dabbling in the sport. Well, I just gotta ask you, like, what excites you about it right now? Like what uh what has your intrigue as far as the trails go?

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

Yeah, honestly, it's been, you know, I kind of looking at the roads. Like I feel like I've been like kind of hitting my head on this wall. Um, I had a couple years where I was pretty injured, and then like coming back has been, you know, has been hard. Cause I'm like, you know, looking at these marathoners and you know, not to be like negative, but like I'm knocking around 212. So it's like I kind of like one of those things where it's like you're trying to find your space in the sport. And and I was just kind of like, you know, I'm I don't know where I'm feeling with this, with the, you know, I want to still run a really fast marathon, but like where am I at with this? Um, and then the trail stuff really was intriguing me. And, you know, I think there's a lot to be like explored in the trail world. I think it's like becoming really big right now. It's been a big thing, but I think all of a sudden it looks to be pretty much kind of exploding, like kind of all around the world. Um, and so I was like, you know, this looks, you know, fun. And like maybe I had this like kind of theory where like, you know, maybe if I work on more trails, you know, I'll get a lot stronger and like work on all those like little muscles and like the quad muscles and the power, and you know, maybe I can bring that back over to the roads and maybe run better on the roads. So I was kind of like testing out this thing. So I kind of it made it honestly like it took a little bit of pressure, especially once A6 was, you know, on board and behind it. It takes some of the pressure off of, I would say, each of them, because especially if I'm doing both, um, to kind of be like, you know, let's do the best I can at each one of these. But I'm kind of gonna do the ones that's that's making me more happy at the time, which I think just I think if you're happier, you're gonna run better. Um, and so you know that was the biggest intrigue for me was I was excited about trail running, more excited than I had been about road running. Um, and I just was like, you know, let's jump in and give it, give it a try and see and see what happens. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:02

I love it. I love it. Now, you got this cheer, you kind of like mixed it up. You got a chance to do the VK, which is a super iconic race. I love the rut and everything that they do. But you also got to do as far as the 50K. Seeing friends and family kind of race the longer stuff, is there more intrigue to do the longer stuff, or is it like just short trail kind of call to you right now?

SPEAKER_00: 24:23

Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely would like to do some of those, like, you know, 100K, would love to get, you know, a chance to run western states, those type of things. I I'm kind of trying to, you know, not be too greedy at first and just kind of work my way there too. I think, you know, with where I'm at with road running, you know, doing this trail running has kind of like re-sparked a love for road running, which has like been very cool to see. Um, and you know, road running, even track running, I've kind of been excited about, which is like have not been for like a year or so. Um, and so I'm like, I think with like where I'm at there where I do want to continue running some on the roads, I think like non-sully the best thing for me right now is to kind of stick to something like the 50K and down. Um, but definitely in the next couple years, yeah, we'll we'll probably move up to trying out some hundred Ks and maybe even 100 miles.

SPEAKER_01: 25:06

Okay, okay. No, I like it. You know what? I'm I'm curious to ask you this because like, but I think it was right after or somewhere in the time frame of Don't Fence Me In, we had the Son of Peace Gramble, which was the mountain classic for the world selection team. Did that ever cross your mind to like go there and mix it up? Or was it let me just test this out first and just see how I like it? Um, or did the idea of like maybe trying to get on Team USA without really like you know, doing a ton at like it in in background wise, like did that kind of um cross your mind at all?

SPEAKER_00: 25:41

It did cross my mind, I gotta say, I was like terrified of the first one. So I was like, I gotta hide and I need this to be as like low-key as as I possibly can. I'm gonna drive the day before and get there. Um so for that one, I definitely was like, I wanted to do a local one. The you know, the uh broken arrow one did cross my mind a little bit with, you know, trying to do because at that point I had run, I had run one. I'd run hell out of one. Uh and I was like, okay, maybe I could do that, but I had planned on grandma's marathon. Um so I was like, you know, I'll just do grandma's. I like I almost switched it. I had a couple times, like I was pretty back and forth. ASICs was all for like they're like, you know, do what you want to do. If you don't want to do grandma's, you can do broken arrow. Um, but I was still a little bit scared because, you know, I'm definitely like technically not the best trail runner. Um, and so I'm working on my like technical skills with that. And I was like, broken arrow might be kind of hard. Um, and so I was I honestly and I didn't really know like what a VK was like. I'd never done one before. So, you know, now looking back, I almost kind of wish I would have just gotten done the VK. Um, but I think the yeah, I think you know it was good, it kind of worked out good because I think, you know, I slowly did it and you know didn't do anything that was like too outside of my, you know, where I was like scared to do it at first. I mean, I was definitely scared to do the VK and scared for Kodiak, but like I felt like a little more comfortable that by that point. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:55

What what did you think of the VK? Because that's such a different I mean it's I don't know. It's basically a 400 as hard as you can go, like for 40 minutes. Yeah, basically. Uh what was your what was your thought on that as far as the climbing and just the because that's a I would argue that's one of the more technical, not that we have a lot of VKs in America, but that's probably the most technical VK we have.

SPEAKER_00: 27:16

Yeah, I was honestly signed up for it and then was like, oh my god, why did I do that? Um, but then you know I got there and I was I was so nervous. Like I I mean I get to these marathons and stuff now, and I feel like I'm nervous, but you're like, oh, you know, I've got 26 miles to figure this out. So um, and I've kind of done it so many times that I'm like, okay, I'm comfortable with this. But the VK, I was like, felt like I was back in college running like a mile. And then I was like, I was like so nervous. Um, and I was, you know, I it was I loved it. It was so fun. It was like terrible, but so fun. Um, if that makes sense. Like I would definitely like to do, I'm kind of surprised because I kind of thought like, oh, I'll do it and it's gonna be because everybody was like, yeah, VKs are horrible. Um and I was like, okay, sounds good. Um, but it was really like, I guess I would compare it to like an all-out, yeah, like mile. Honestly, it's probably similar to like if you run a 5k right in track, it's pretty horrible from lap one to lap 12. So yeah, yeah, yeah, if you do it right. Um, and so I think honestly that VK was would probably compare to something like that. And I haven't done an effort like that in a long time. I've definitely been more like half marathon, marathon. So I kind of liked it, and I think I want to do some more of that.

SPEAKER_01: 28:21

Oh, okay, all right. Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Does especially with the ASICs background and ASICs um now with I don't know, two two men this past year on uh the podium of UTMB and stuff like that. I know there's a lot of brand pool to want to have an audience there and stuff like that. Then you go obviously and run Kodiak win that. I would assume that's for you to go do OCC next year. Is that is that I guess the correct guess?

SPEAKER_00: 28:48

Yeah, that is a correct guess. Um, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I watched all that. I mean, I've been like following UTMB, CCC, like OCC, those races for a while now, just with you know, Adam Peterman and Aaron Clark in them. And so just like, you know, good friends and I like to follow along. Um, and you know, Tabor, those, you know, everybody there. So I feel like they've been very intriguing, like those ones. I just feel like too, it's a big stage. So it would be definitely a little bit out of my comfort zone. You know, it's definitely less runnable than like something like Kodiak for sure. Um, but I definitely was very intrigued by trying to qualify it and and qualify for it and want that challenge of like, I don't know, I love to do really well at at you know at OCC. So um that is that's kind of my like big one of 2026 will be, you know, OCC.

SPEAKER_01: 29:30

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:32

Well, uh, since we're on that topic of 2026, I know it's this is really hard to kind of like look ahead and start to plan stuff, but I feel like as trail runners, we're all kind of planners, we're all kind of like, oh, this looks cool. That looks cool. Um I would I would assume maybe we'll see you with Broken Arrow as well. Is that something else that's on the list? Or yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00: 29:49

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I've got a couple written down, but yeah, broken arrow is on there, and you know, maybe Canyons um 50k would be on there um to get another one of those. But yeah, I think I'll do, you know, honestly at the beginning of the year. I'm probably gonna I thought about a marathon, um, but I'm probably just gonna do some uh you know some half marathons and that type of thing to kind of get my speed um up and like kind of keep it up and then kind of transition to more like longer trail stuff for um end of April. Uh a little bit harder to get on some trails here too and imposing uh in the wintertime. So we'll have to go find some somewhere. Um but yeah, so that you know would maybe start with canyons in April.

SPEAKER_01: 30:23

Okay. On the topic of canyons and this is just stylistically in general, different things get different people out of bed in the morning. With your speed and your background, is it something like that's flatter, faster, more interesting to you, or is it more the mountainous stuff that kind of like calls to you?

SPEAKER_00: 30:40

Definitely, I mean, definitely more runnable. I would say is like only because I'm more comfortable with it. Um so I think you know, those those are more like I'm like I feel more comfortable going into it, but I also think like the more mountainous ones are like scary to me, which is kind of fun. Like I haven't felt like super scared of a race until I started doing some trail running. And so, and I kind of like that feeling. Like it's like kind of fun to go into it being very nervous for something and like feel like you do have a lot to, I mean, I feel like there's a lot to work on that I have to like get to those mountainous ones, um, which seems fun to me. It seems like it's like you have to definitely be more skilled to do well at those. So I think it's like good to learn. You know, I haven't felt like I mean it's like there's like definitely a lot of improvement I can do in the marathon and stuff, but it's like skill-wise, it's more just like, oh, let me work, you know, work hard, run these paces more, that type of thing. Whereas like with the trail stuff, it's like, oh no, I need to get on some, you know, I need to actually get better at running on a trail. So that's kind of you know, that's intriguing for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 31:33

Yeah. And it's it's interesting. Like, I I it's funny, I spitball this with my coach all the time. We always talk about uh because I, you know what I find myself, especially in the off season, I do you know more road running and just more stuff on the track for my workouts and stuff. And I always worry, I'm like, am I gonna lose like certain muscular adaptations that I've made? And that's what the obviously the gym is really important and stuff like that. Do you do you spend a lot of time and like do lifts and stuff like that or lift uh and do a lot of like cross-training? Like, what is your kind of your background like for that?

SPEAKER_00: 32:02

Yeah, honestly, I actually hate lifting. I know it's good for you. I do go in twice a week. Um, and I I do some sort of I I like to also do some like strength Pilates, which I've kind of stolen from a lot of the Australian runners. Um, and so I've been doing some of that, but that's more just like I usually try to do that like maybe once a week on the side. Um and then yeah, I go into the gym, like you know, I try to get in for sure once a week. Um, and then I do try to get in also um, I'll try to get in twice a week too. And it's not anything like very amazing that you see, but I definitely work, try to work in there to get, you know, you know, strength up in the knees and everything. My I have some weird knees. So um I try to do like you know some squats and that type of thing. Um, but I that's something I've been doing for like, I guess, you know, my whole pro career is just going, you know, going to the gym a couple days a week. Um and then cross-training, I got well, I was pretty injured like two years ago for like a year and a half, and so I got really into gravel biking. And so that was great. So I do a lot, like if I am gonna cross-train, I usually will try to gravel bike. Um in Bozeman, it's like pretty easy to cross-century ski. Um, so I also will do some cross-century skiing here in the wintertime for some like cross-training. So I feel like most of the time I'm just running, so I am kind of a high volume person and I do like to like just log a lot of miles. Um, but when I'm feeling like I need it, I'll add in some of those type of cross-training things.

SPEAKER_01: 33:14

Interesting. Yeah, I want to go back in time a little bit and talk about just like what it's like growing up in Montana. Because I guess I kind of I want to thread that with the cross-country skiing aspect because I feel like if you grow up in Montana, you have access and you know, it's it's really, really good, obviously. Like, what was it like for your upbringing? Obviously, lots of time on trails, lots of time in the outdoors. Um, would you say that like that's the kind of where your love for the outdoors and trails comes from? Or do you think it was more like mom and dad that kind of like facilitated that?

SPEAKER_00: 33:45

Yeah, I mean, they honestly my parents are awesome. They've taken us out and like we've been in nature for like we did tons of stuff outside growing up, which is like definitely on them. Like, thank you, Bob Dad, for doing that. Um, but no, we were actually huge. Like my first love was actually snowboarding. Um, and so I got really into snowboarding. We didn't do a ton of like northern, we did like Nordic skiing as a family, not like I'm pretty bad at it. I think it's a very good cross-training tool, but I'm like bad. Um, and so but we would do it as a family for fun, mostly just like going out on logging roads and just classic skiing. Um, and then we would go up to, you know, the we would go up to Big Mountain, which is now called Whitefish Mountain Resort in Whitefish, Montana, and we would camp at the ski hill every weekend, literally from when I was in second grade to when I graduated high school. Um, and we would just snowboard, you know, a snowboard ski uh all weekend. So I think those were things that, you know, I think I worked on a lot of different, I didn't just run, you know, seven days a week when I was kind of growing up. We did a lot of different things like that. Like we would just go be outside all the time. We did a lot of my dad builds canoes, um, cedar canoes and kayaks and stuff for a living. So uh we also do a lot of like, you know, kayaking in the um spring and the summer and the fall too. So we were outside a lot. And so I think honestly, just like being outside so often and like them giving us the opportunities to like do all these fun things like skiing and snowboarding and cross-country skiing, kayaking, and like everything like that, definitely has like sparked, you know, a love for the outdoors. And yeah, we were on trails all the time. My dad would always we definitely ran them like way too hard, like we didn't understand how to run trails. Um, but we like we were like, oh yeah, sprint as fast as you can up. Awesome. Um, and I was like, why are they so hard? Uh but yeah, I feel like we definitely did a lot of those growing up.

SPEAKER_01: 35:21

I got I gotta ask you this because I ask every Montana slash Wyoming athlete that the grizzly bear situation. Like terrible in Colorado, we obviously don't have grizzly bears. I think that's probably a good thing. Um, but I don't know, grizzly bears are also really cool. So no disparagement against grizzly bears. But still you have them there. Is it what is it like like running on trails with grizzlies all the time? Or like at least they're there, you know, more or less. Like, is it a healthy understanding of not going on certain trails during certain times of the year, or is it, you know, just kind of be aware of your surroundings, like maybe kind of paint that picture and yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00: 35:58

So I'm not brave, gotta say. I there are brave people, not one of them. Um, and so I uh, you know, growing up in the Flyhead, uh, you know, we kind of I didn't grow up like in town, I definitely grew up outside of town. Uh and we would see, there's less now, but we would see grizzly bears, we ran with bear spray all fall, um, like even like on our roads, just like around our house, because we would see like multiple mamas and two cubs. Um, and a couple times they would chase your car, and you're like, okay, well, if they're gonna chase a car, what are they gonna do to a human? Um, I think they were more like curious about it, but like we were like, oh god. Um, so we yeah, and we did, and then there's been multiple times where we were like running on. We my dad loves to go run on logging roads, so we would go run on all kinds of logging roads, kind of like in Swan Lake, kind of heading up towards the Bob Marshall area. And uh there's, you know, we would see them. I we scared a couple, I've seen them fall out of a tree right next to you because it's been a young one and they get scared. So I mean, I definitely see some. I actually had my most recent, I haven't had an encounter with one, I guess for like three years, maybe. The last one was up in the swan when I was running with my dad and my friend, and we scared one of them out of a tree. And he like fell down, and then we're like, oh my god, stop. Um, and I'm one of those people where my boyfriend told me he's added, like, you know, there's like fight or flight. He's added a third response. It's called escalate. So I apparently escalate the situation and I flight. So I'm like not good in those situations at all. Um, and so I yeah, we saw one this summer. We were way back in the Beartooth Wilderness, which is a couple hours from Bozeman, and uh we saw we were maybe 13 miles back on this trail, and we saw Mama and the Cub very close. Me and uh one of my good friends and my boyfriend. So it was pretty scary. We were like in a actually not a great situation. We had bear spray um and we got out of it okay, but the mama was not being super, she was not not charging, but she wasn't being she wasn't ignoring us either. So it was one of those situations where I was like, wow, so you definitely in Bozeman, like you know, the flathead for sure, you have to be wary of it. And then Bozeman, I think, you know, like the bridgers, the mountain range right in Bozeman, there's more black bears there for sure. Like, I think there's like an occasional passing through grizzly. So I think you know, just running with bear's phrase is important, but like kind of anywhere towards like big sky or yellowstone, anything like that is gonna have grizzlies. So I honestly don't run a lot over there unless I've got like a bigger group, because no way I'm doing that by myself. Uh, and so yeah, I think that's been a big thing kind of jumping into trail running because like more when I was, you know, the last couple years when I was like trail running for training, I would do more of like in town trails. Whereas like now I'm like, oh, I do kind of have to get some vert and like get into the mountains. And so that's been like interesting, kind of picking different ones. But I'm I'm a scaredy cat. I'd rather like loop a small one than like go way out and see a bear by myself. So yeah, uh definitely something we just gotta bring bear spray and be careful.

SPEAKER_01: 38:39

So crazy. Oh, I think they chased cars. What the hell?

SPEAKER_00: 38:42

I know I haven't had that was when I was young, so I haven't had that a little bit. That was when we were in like I think we're in high school, but yeah, I was terrifying. We were like, oh, they weren't gonna like, I think it was the Cubs, and they were just like, What is that? And they were just chasing the cars, like, oh, it's a toy. Yeah, scary.

SPEAKER_01: 38:57

Wild, absolutely wild. Um, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk to you about training and the sense of like blocks and pyramidization. Like, do you are you still working with a coach or do you self-coach now?

SPEAKER_00: 39:09

Yeah, so I, you know, I switched working from Wild We uh about a year, just over a year ago, uh, the Montana State coach. He was great. I just feel like we kind of wanted, you know, we need I needed to shift a little bit. And then I work worked with Ed I Stone, the BYU coach, uh for about a year. And then I have been self-coached now for since May. Um, so it's been great. Honestly, it's been, yeah, it's been like a huge learning process. Uh, I think I've grown a lot as an athlete from it and learned a lot like about myself and and have had to really teach myself how to like do stuff on my own again. And like it's been it's been huge, I think. But yeah, I've been doing it on my own now for I don't know how long it is, eight months maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 39:47

So yeah. Are you are you like a nerd about it, or is it more so like just like more relaxed? Like I know I meet some people like that are obsessed. They're like, oh, every every little way to gain one to two percent of a you know performance improvement, they're going for it. And then there's some people that are just like kind of, I don't know, a little more chilled and laid back on it. Like how how would you fit yourself on that spectrum?

SPEAKER_00: 40:10

Definitely more on the chill side, I would say. I mean, I definitely like I like I feel like kind of like a nerve when I'm writing out my training. Like I'll write out a whole four months at a time. Obviously, I change stuff during that time because I'm like writing it all out, but I get very excited. Like I love writing workouts, I love kind of putting them into a schedule. I'm like a pretty type A person, so like I like like a nice seven-day schedule at a time. Um, and so that for me is really fun. But I am pretty flexible. Like I kind of get to like each week and I will definitely change stuff around based on how I'm feeling. And I think that's been nice to feel like I'm not too, you know, like stressed out about it, where I won't change anything. Whereas I feel like with a coach, I almost was like that, where it was like I felt like they assigned me something and I was like, my body's not ready, but I'm gonna do it anyway because I got assigned that. Whereas like now coaching myself, I'm like, hey, let's like, I mean, even today was a good example. I like tried doing a workout yesterday, failed horribly, pushed it to today, went good. So it was one of those things where like I didn't used to do that before. And so now it kind of gives me that ability to move stuff around. And I think with adding the trail running into like my body was definitely not used to doing all that vert and you know, the up and the down. And so I had to really work with like, you know, how do I feel? Do I need to push these multiple days? But yeah, I would say definitely more chill. I'm definitely will move stuff around as needed. Um, and I definitely have science and like what I've learned behind it, but it's more like less sciencey and more of like, hey, I've had four or five coaches in my life, what has worked the best for me and in putting it all together together like that.

SPEAKER_01: 41:37

Interesting. Do you uh especially because you are a coach? Like, how do you like uh yeah, how do you like first of all, how do you like being a coach? And is there anything like is there like more stuff that you can apply for yourself that you can also test out on your athletes? Or like how does how does that work?

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

Yeah, great. I honestly, and that's why like I feel like I've kind of been slowly moving towards coaching myself for like the last couple years, um, because I have coached with Ron Doyen um for two years now, and then I did coach with Montana State University, um like a volunteer coach, but I was you know there every day doing that with them. So uh I love it. Like I love coaching people, I love writing the workouts and like looking how it all fits together as like a whole. Um, like you know, I love writing like a big training block, like a three-month training block and being like, hey, change stuff when we need to, but like here's kind of the sense of what we want it to look like. Um, and so I think, you know, looking into that, and I honestly I used to write a lot of my training in high school with my dad. And so I and I loved it. Like I remember loving writing that. And so I was like, you know, I think this could be really fun for me to do that because I enjoy it so much as my athletes. Maybe I can like take what I write for them and just write it for myself. Um, and so yeah, I feel like it taught me a lot to work with all of them. I have mostly people doing like, you know, marathons and a lot of people who want Boston qualifiers and that type of thing. Um, but I feel like I've learned a lot from the athletes on, you know, what people like. Obviously, everybody's different, so different stuff works for everybody. But um, I feel like I it's nice to kind of see like, okay, this workout works really well for you know all my athletes, so maybe I'll try it. Um, and stuff like that. And I feel like my athletes are smart, like I learn stuff from them too, all the time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:11

So cool. Uh, where do you find yourself now as far as like in build? Like, are you getting ready for anything in the short term? Do you have coming up?

SPEAKER_00: 43:19

Yes. So I kind of, okay, so I was gonna do, I did Kodiak, and then I was like, kind of had I was gonna originally maybe do California, CIM, California International Marathon. I think, you know, I've been wanting to do that one for a long time. I also feel like in my brain, I needed to have something I know that I can do after Kodiak in case Kodiak went terribly. Um, and so I feel like I was like, all right, we're gonna go for Kodiak. I'm gonna put, I kinda, I mean, I kind of put a lot of my eggs in that Kodiak basket and was just like, let's go for it. This is my big race this season. Um, but I also was like, hey, let's have a backup in case, like, you know, not great. Um, and so uh I and I wanted to, I still was going to do CIM, but I did kind of came out of Kodiak. I have some like knee stuff that I kind of always deal with. Um and I did a couple face plants in in Kodiak on nothing. I didn't, I literally was, I fell on dirt. I don't even know what happened. Um, and so I think I just was like trying a little bit too hard a couple times and just miffed it. Um so I did hit land on my knees, so my knee got a little wonky um after Kodiak and I, you know, tried to kind of come back pretty quick because I was like, oh, you know, I've got eight weeks here between that and CIM. Um, and my body just said, you know, nope, we're done. So, you know, I took a couple down weeks, but then uh another thing that I had originally on my schedule, kind of before CIM, was uh US Cross. So I am actually gonna do US Cross. It's December 6th, so I've got just under a month. So I'm trying to get fast, we're working the speed.

SPEAKER_01: 44:43

Nice.

unknown: 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:45

So cool. All right, I feel like I glossed over Kodiak, and I do want to get into that because like you said, it was your A race, it was such a cool performance. Um first off, like how long, like how long out did you know that you were gonna jump into that race? Like, had that been a plan for a while, or was it a very last second thing? Like, how how are you able to uh you tell me?

SPEAKER_00: 45:05

Yeah, kind of last minute. I mean, those UT and B races are pretty hard to get into. So I feel like, especially if you don't have any sort of score, and if you don't sign up in time, and I'm so used to like, you know, road racing is kind of different where like you just, you know, if you're if you're a pro road racer, you can kind of get into the I mean it's good to get into them a month or so out, or maybe more than that, but you can kind of seek your way in, even if you're like, hey, a week before I want to do this. So I'm a little more coming from those lines, and I didn't understand how hard it was to get into these trail races. I was like, what is this? Um, so I did I so I did run um the Don't Fence Me In, which was scored under, you know, they've scored it in UTMB. And so I got, yeah, so that's so I got a 20k score with that. And I emailed Paula. I love Paula, she's great. Um, and she I forgot her last name, but she works with UTMB. Uh and she, yeah, go Paula. Love her. She got me in this race, so love Paula. Um, but I I was so annoying. I literally emailed Paula, I'm not joking, 45 times. Um, and I was like, please let me in. Uh I up, I asked her every week, um, do you have any openings? Uh, because you know, she was like, You have a high enough, you got a high 20k score, but you know, you don't have a 50k score. So I was just like, I don't care, I'll pay. Doesn't matter, just give me a spot. So it honestly took, I can't remember when she said that they were gonna open up spots. I had to, you know, I paid for my spot, but I like was like, I don't care, just give me anything. Um, and so I can't remember when that was, but it was kind of the summer. It was after don't fence me in. It was after I talked to ASICs just to see, like, hey, is that an option for me to do a 50k? Um, and then you know, then I I think it's probably June or July that I kind of like officially signed up for that. Probably July by the time I was they let me in. But yeah, very, very happy to get into it.

SPEAKER_01: 46:45

So cool. All right, so you're in the race. Is it weird for you? Like, do people re like did were you recognized at all? Were people like, oh, like I know who that girl is? Like as far as like on the start line or something like that, or are you still a little anonymous to where they're not quite sure? Uh because they don't really know the road scene.

SPEAKER_00: 47:02

I feel like a lot of trailrunners don't know the road scene. There definitely are people who do know the road scene who like, but you I think like at these races, like there was a, you know, I don't know how many people. I think some of the people, the pro people at the front, maybe knew. And there's a couple people that I had know at anyway that knew probably, you know, a couple of the women that I've met before, um, and or met through Grayson or something that I that probably knew. And so, but yeah, I think a majority of people didn't really, didn't really know, other than maybe like, oh, she's wearing an ASICs jersey, which we don't see very often in US trail races.

SPEAKER_01: 47:33

Right, right, right. That's why that's part of the reason why I asked too. It's like it's yeah, we don't see a lot of ASICs uh singlets, and also I don't know. I think it I think it's kind of cool too to have a little bit of anonymity because very soon like everybody's gonna know who you are in the trail space. So it's like, you know, enjoy it, soak it in while you can.

SPEAKER_00: 47:52

Yep. Yeah, I mean I was kind of I kind of liked it. I was like, this is nice because I feel like I don't know, the road stuff we get so hyped and like it's great and it's super fun, but it was like a little bit nice to almost be like a little more low-key and just like, okay, I'm gonna go into this. It took some of the pressure off too, because I was like very nervous and I definitely wanted to come into Kodiak and do really well at my first like big trail race. Um, but there was you know a part of me too that was unsure how it was gonna go because I was like, I've never run this far, never run this long. So who knows how it'll go.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

How did the race unfold for you? Like, obviously, from the outside looking in, like the reels and everything and seeing video, like you looked very smooth, looked calm, looked composed. How did the race like actually go for you? Like, was it did it play out that way, or was it like a shit show? Like what what how did it go?

SPEAKER_00: 48:36

It was kind of a shit show at the beginning. Uh so I like started and I felt great. Like the first like four, I was like clicking along. Um, I think I had a pretty decent lead by like four and a half miles because it was it's really runnable. It's like kind of more flat, and I was like, okay, this is in my wheelhouse for sure. And then, you know, the first climb, you know, the first and biggest climb of the Kodiak one was at is it four and a half miles? And I was following a couple pro guy trail runners who I had kind of picked out before the race uh from their straba. I stalked them. Um and I was like, ooh, these people are people I can probably run with. Um, and I was like, so I picked them and I was running behind them, and uh, and I had run parts of the course too, kind of leading up to the race because we were there for my boyfriend and I were there for the week before. Um, because I was pretty nervous about like getting lost because I'm not very good at directions. And so I like, you know, we were going, and this was a pretty easy spot to uh not miss. Like you should definitely not miss the spot that we missed. And I, you know, kind of was head down. I think they were the same, head down, and it was kind of a left turn up to go on this like little single track trail. We just keep running and we're on this like fire road. I'm like, oh, I ran this section, you know, uh four days ago. And I was like, I do not remember running on a fire road. Uh and so we kind of got like, I think we got just over a half mile up and from where I think we took the wrong turn. And I asked the, I think his name is Cole Watson, was one of the guys. Yeah. And uh and he's a very good runner, but I think he's been kind of injured. So I would normally not be able to run with him, but I was like, okay, maybe coming back from his injury, I could run with him. And um, so he it was great he was there actually because he he was like, Oh, I think we went the wrong way. And I was like, What do you do? I like freaked out because I was like, I you don't go the wrong way in road races. Like, I was like, What do you mean we went the wrong way? And so then I'm like, okay, well, do I cut over? Like, do I go? And there was this massive ravine. So I was like, I don't even think I can get over there to the trail. And so then he's like, No, you have to go back down, or you're else you're gonna get disqualified. And I was like, What? I was like, excuse me, I have to go back down. Um, and so yeah, he's like, No, you've got it, like, I'm sorry, you gotta go back down. So thank goodness for him for telling me that because I'm sure I would have tried to bushwhack. I almost quit. I like got because I've like felt so discouraged because I was like, I'm four and a half miles into this. Like, this is I can't believe I took this far of a wrong turn. Um, so I think I probably I went back on Strauben, I think I lost like eight or nine minutes, but it was about a mile that I lost there. So I came back down and then I was like, you know, I so that from there, I feel like my whole mentality kind of shifted a little bit to just like getting back in front. Whereas like before I was like, let's see how fast I can run this course, let's see how fast I can do this. Um, and so you know, after that, it was kind of like, okay, I gotta try to win now. Now I'm and I think I was in, I came back into the trail. Um, I think I was in 12th or 14th, I can't remember for females. I thought I was like fairly aggressive asking these women, but they said after that I was very nice. So that's good. Um I was worried. I was like, I'm sorry if I like yelled at you and was like, what place am I in? I did, I did ask, yeah. But they said I asked it nicely, which I kind of doubt, but that's nice of them to say. Um, and so I apparently, I you know, I asked the place and they're like, Hey, you're, I think you're in uh 12th or 14th, I can't remember. And I was like, oh my God. Um, and so I just I made a kind of rookie mistake then to of trying to catch everybody in like three miles. So that was a really bad idea. Uh I realized that now after the race and in the middle of the race, I was like, oh my God, I'm gonna die. Um, but yeah, I would say that was kind of the biggest kind of shit show really early on. Good, I think though, too, that you know, one, don't just, you know, head down, follow people, look around and like look for flags on your own. And then I think two, to like, you know, not I don't need to catch everybody that is in front of me in um 25 minutes. Uh, because you've got like I had like, you know, 20, 24, 26 miles left to go. Um, and so a whole marathon. I could have taken longer. Uh, so I definitely suffered from that, definitely a little bit in the middle of the race. I got pretty tired. I was, I had caught everybody by then, but I was pretty tired in the middle, like, well, I put a big effort out early on. But then after that, it was kind of I ran with this, I totally forgot his name. He was awesome. I ran with this great guy for probably 15 miles. He just ran kind of right behind me the whole time. Um, he was great because there was a couple spots. They'd had a windstorm the night before. So I think a lot of the flags got knocked out of the trees because there was like quite a few spots that you would get to, and I think you were just like, I mean, it'd be like a little top of a little mound, and there's like four ways to go and there's no flag. Um, and so the guy had, I think he had his the route on his watch, which I didn't have. And so he was great. He helped me know where to go. He was like very nice because a couple times I was like dying. Um, and so it's my little friend dying. We didn't talk that much, but he was my friend that I ran with for a long time. Um I don't remember his name. Um, but yeah, so that was honestly the rest of the race was kind of just like getting through it. It was interesting. I could tell people like with marathons, like you're running kind of as fast as you can run, and you're just running that for 26 miles. And it's almost easier in a sense for some of I think it's easier until the wheels fall off in a marathon and then it becomes like extraordinarily hard. Whereas like in these 50Ks and troll races, like you're going up and down so many times, and your the terrain is different and the footing is different, that I feel like you're kind of like redlining and then not, and then redlining and then not. So honestly, I think that was probably harder and I guess just more I don't know, a little bit more like just grueling and like then that you had to just dig a little bit more than like in a marathon where you're just like, oh, I'm clicking off, you know, 540s, and this is just like what I do. Um, and so that was like cool to kind of see and like feel that. Um, I cramped a little bit, but that's why I was grimacing at the end, but I only cramped the last like mile and a half. So I think maybe need work a little bit on my hydration, but it almost worked. And honestly, if I didn't go the wrong way for a mile, it probably would have been perfect. So um, yeah. So yeah, that's kind of the whole one. But yeah, the end got pretty, really hard. So it was more just like one foot in front of the other, uh, and just like kind of getting to the finish line.

SPEAKER_01: 54:25

Did you hit a mental wall like kind of after the marathon mark? Or like were you not even like looking at the watch? And like once it started getting difficult, that's when you started feeling it.

SPEAKER_00: 54:35

Honestly, I feel like I more hit a mental wall in the middle. Um, because I kind of like, you know, I think it was it was after I pushed really hard to catch um all the girls in front of me. I feel like at that point I was like, wow, I'm toasted, and we're like 12 miles in. Um, and so I was like sick. Uh I've 18 miles to go. So I think honestly, from that kind of like 12 to 14 mile mark all the way to like 23, I would say, that was like a mental hurdle for me. It was more just like it was weird because I was like, you're pushing, but you're also kind of alone. Like I had that one guy that I ended up finding. Um, but it was hard because there wasn't like a big group around you either. It's more like you have to mentally push yourself, which is which is cool, but also like pretty hard to do when you're feeling kind of a little bit demoralized because you're like, oh, I'm tired. Um, and then I think once I got to 23 or 24, there was a couple aid stations along the way too, where I was gonna see my dad. I do I think I saw my dad at I think 24 or 25, and I knew I was gonna see him there. And so I was like, just kind of like let me get to there, and then I'll just like run it in, you know, I'll I'll make it in from there. And he was like, Yeah, you looked you looked really tired of that one. And I was like, Yeah, I was. Uh but I made it.

SPEAKER_01: 55:42

What did you what did you do for nutrition? And like, did you practice like did you I guess I don't know, because I feel like marathon nutrition is it's a different game, like trying to get all that figured out versus like something in an ultra marathon. What what did you do differently, I guess?

SPEAKER_00: 55:58

Yeah. I think with the marathon, it's like you can, you know, miss a little bit more in a marathon. You know, you want to get it kind of dialed, and you usually get, you know, every 5k you get a bottle. Like it's pretty, as an elite runner, you you know, it's pretty dialed for you. Um, but I also think there's a little more room because you're out there for, you know, two and a half hours so or under. And so there's a little more room to kind of miss a couple things because it's not, it's long, but it's not like horribly long. Um, whereas like I think in these like you know, 50Ks and like obviously anything above a 50K, um, you're out there for like a long, way longer than that. Um, and so I think you definitely need to get, you know, get in enough and not bonk. So I did practice. I practice a lot and just a lot of my training runs and like um I did I what I use on that, I used mostly um SIS. I like the 2D Fruity um flavor, Science and Sport, best one. Uh and then I used some, what I think in my bottles I had, oh, I used Scratch Superfuel in a couple of my bottles. So I think I just did superfuel for the first um couple bottles um with a gel. And then for my last one, I just did a little bit of like electrolytes with like three or four gels because they're pretty easy for me to take down. I definitely think I need to work a little bit on getting a little bit more liquid in. I was trying to get in about, I think I have five, I can't remember what they are. Um, but I was getting in a bottle an hour, um, which I think was okay, but I think I could do a little bit more. Um, so yeah, so that's it. It worked decently. I got everything in that I needed to get in. I think I, although I missed like two gels, and I don't remember when I missed those. Probably the end when I was blacking out. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:28

How did you I it's a bit higher up in elevation than Bozeman too. How did you deal with the altitude?

SPEAKER_00: 57:34

Yeah, honestly, I was like, you know, I've always done pretty well altitude, which is good. You know, they're just like I don't know why. I mean, I was where I grew up in the flatheads like 3,000 feet elevation, so it's not super high. Um, I've now been at like close to 5,000 feet, you know, since college, and then now for, you know, maybe 10 years now. So um I think, and but I've always noticed even in college, we would go up to long runs at 9,000 feet, and I usually would do pretty well. Um, so probably just genetics that I lucked out with that. Um, but I think that yeah, I do okay with that. I was nervous about that though, because I think the whole race is like pretty much between like 66 to 8,000 feet um of elevation, which is pretty high. Um, and I noticed it. You can definitely like, you know, the pushing it, you know, redlining it was definitely harder. And then you could just tell with like your lungs and your breathing, you're like, yeah, I'm I'm getting tired a lot faster and at a little bit slower pace than I would, you know, at 5,000 feet in Bozeman. Um, so I think just like going to that and being a little bit cautious there with that one was was good and not, you know, hammering. I was going fairly hard the first like four or so before I got lost, but I think that you know, I was also holding back a little bit, just like knowing that I was high up elevation. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 58:42

I guess that's another good question, too, is like knowing the pacing for a 50k. Because it's like, all right, do I just fit threshold the whole time? Or like what am I, you know, it it's it's kind of hard to nail because it and because if you go too hard, as you know, like it's it doesn't usually end well. It's preoplying.

SPEAKER_00: 59:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:01

So it's like, how did you have an idea of like what to pace that at? Or just like whatever, you know, especially being your first time.

SPEAKER_00: 59:08

Yeah, I don't I honestly think like doing, I did, you know, that don't pens me in Helena, and then I did actually a trail race that was like 24 miles just in Bozeman. It's on the Bangdale mountain range in July. Um, it was just like a really small one that's just you know in local people here. And so I think like I've tried just practicing just going off of like feel in those, and I do wear my heart rate monitor on it. I don't check it super often, which maybe I should more. I definitely think there's a lot for me to learn on like the pacing and everything. Like the marathons, so simple. You like train for a certain pace and then you run that pace, and then you like look at your watch and you're like perfect, right on. Um, but like yeah, the 50Ks, it's like the pace is like not doesn't totally matter. It's more like the effort and probably like your heart rate um on a lot of that stuff. But I have noticed in both those races and even Kodiak, my heart rate stayed really, really similar the whole time, even on the ups and the downs. Like, obviously, it's a little bit higher on the ups, but I was able. Able to keep it pretty good on the down too. Um, and I don't really I think I've just run so much threshold that it was probably just right around my low threshold, like zone three. Um, so I don't know, maybe I'm just know how to do that. Maybe my body just kind of falls into that. Um, but yeah, I was kind of around that. But I need to probably work on it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:16

It just kind of knows what to do. That's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:18

Yeah, yeah, it just knows what to do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:20

Yeah, yeah. It's just like, all right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:22

Yeah, I think it does. I didn't try, I don't know, I just did it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:26

Do you in like I guess it's kind of different? Like, I mean everybody's a little bit different, but in training, are you like married to heart rate at all? Or is it more so, like you said, just like more so married to pacing?

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:36

I have always been more, you know, I like you know, mileage and pacing, um, which is probably something I'll have to adjust as I get more into the trail world. I do wear like a heart rate monitor, not every day, like on my easy days, I usually forget, but I try to wear it like every time I have a workout or long run. Um, and I like to go back and look at it after, or you know, in a workout, if there's a time when I'm like, oh my gosh, like I am like dying right now, I'll look at my heart rate and I can be like, oh hey, like slow down. You're like really going into upper thresholds, which is not necessary right now. Um, and so that's been like it's just like a more of a helpful tool for me to look at. Um and like, but I do like, you know, assigning. Obviously, you can't do this on the trails, but like if I do a road workout or track, I like having paces. Um, but I think I'll have to learn a little bit more for sure how to look at the heart rate a little bit more and go off more efforts, you know, and time versus you know, paces and miles.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:25

Interesting. All right, I got I got two questions for you, uh especially going into next year. One, do you know much about the Golden Trail series? Because I would love to see you race series and all. Like I and I and I hope because like I know people that are decision makers there do listen to this sometimes. Like, I would love to see you go over and like do series and all, because that's like obviously it's a marathon distance or a little bit less than a marathon distance, and uh some of the best marathoners in the world and just road athletes in the world go and race it. So it's kind of that intersection of both. But is that something you'd you'd you'd go do?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:59

I would love to. I it's on my radar for sure because I think it's like it's kind of up my alley. It's like straight up for a while, which I love for some reason. Um, and then I also and then it's like seems just like more runnable of a course. Obviously, I think the last little descent is a little bit more technical. Um, but it's definitely on my radar. The only thing it's I think it's three weeks before OCC, like exactly 20 days. Um and so I'm trying to get input because you know I have been very excited about that one. That was definitely one I wrote down really early on, like right after Kodiak. Um, and so I just don't know, like, is that dumb to do those? You know, I might, you know, I might pick one or save one for like next year, or I'll try to do both. Who knows? Um so trying to kind of like kind of reach out to people and see, like, you know, what is the smartest thing to do here? I've also never really traveled overseas for a race, so I also have to figure that out.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:46

So yeah, yeah. All right. On on actually on that topic for ASICs, uh, you probably can't answer this. Maybe you could just give a wink or like a yes or a no. Like, is there more, like, are we gonna do you have an idea if we're gonna see more ASICs US athletes? Like, is that is that a possibility in the future?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:04

I actually don't know on that. I'm not just saying that. I don't, I'm, I'm assuming probably, yes. Um, I'm just like, you know, I feel like they're putting a lot of money and time into, you know, their trail shoes and their trail gear and everything, and it's good. And, you know, I think they've got a great European team. And so I think I could definitely see them putting, you know, putting getting some athletes on that trail roster for the US. I think I think it's first year coming. I don't know exactly when, but I think it definitely is.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:29

Okay. No, I appreciate that. Second call piggy to piggyback off that, I guess like because I mean, I know last year they did. I know they they make like housing and stuff like that available for UTMB athletes and athletes that go over there, which is pretty cool. That'll be kind of like I guess new for you, which would be a lot of fun.

unknown: 1:03:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:47

Yeah. I think I I didn't really, I think I kind of briefly talked to them about that stuff, but I want to talk to them more because they said they had like a house that they had, which I was like, ooh, cool. Um, and so that will be yeah, that would be great. I know my parents might be there, so who knows where I'm staying. Um, but that I was like, that's amazing that they kind of have that for their athletes, and it would be great. I would love to meet all the European A6 athletes and uh, you know, pick their pick their brains. How do I trail run? That'd be great.

unknown: 1:04:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:13

That's so cool. Um, one more question. I'm gonna could this one's uh also gonna be out of left field, just completely different as we start to wind down. Have you ever heard of the Cirque series? Because I'd also love to see you do a Cirque series race next year. Like Yes. There's one not far from you in Montana, like down in Targi. It's not that far.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:29

Yes. I have heard of Cirque series. I honestly think they're I don't know how much they're in my uh I I feel like they're like maybe I could do good. I think I could do good on the up. I think I would look really, really bad on the down. Um and so I think it could be like a very good like training thing. And I definitely almost, you know, I did I talked to I think one of the guys who does is the head of the Cirque series. And so I'd like to maybe do one or two next year just to like, I think great training, you know, it'd make me run fast on stuff I'm not super comfortable running fast on downhill, um, which I think would be great training. I think that would be good. It's definitely seems like a little bit, I definitely feel like I like a little bit longer stuff than that. Um, or I guess shorter, just a VK, just straight up and then end at the top. Um, and so I like that. But yeah, I think honestly the Golden Trail series is, you know, both those are pretty intriguing things. And I think um, you know, I think I'll probably do like dabble in in some of them. I don't know if I do like the whole golden trail series or like all circ series, but it'd be fun to like, you know, pick some races to put into the schedule um for training and just like you know, see see how those go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:33

So cool. Well, Kenna, thank you so much for coming on the pod. This is a great conversation. I'm so happy I caught you kind of like at the beginning of your trail, like uh of your trail career, which is awesome. Um yeah, I can't wait to I hope I can't want to have another conversation with you after next season after you win all these amazing accolades and we get we get to hear all about it. So I'm excited. Thank you so much, I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:55

Yeah, thank you. It's been so great.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:57

Yeah, thanks. Awesome, we're done recording. Cool. Thank you so much. That was awesome. What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Uh want to thank McKenna so much for coming on the show. Uh super appreciative. I'm such a big fan, and uh, it's gonna be really fun to follow her career over the next few years as it continues to blossom. Uh I, for one, genuinely think that she has all the tools to become one of the best trailrunners on the planet Earth, which is pretty cool. Uh so we're gonna see, especially if she takes on races like OCC and Broken Arrow and others next year. Um, it's gonna be fun to watch her become an absolute household name. So the best way you could support her is to give her a follow on Instagram. You could find her at McKenna underscore Morley. It's gonna be linked in the show notes. But if you're one of those people that likes spelling, uh it's M-A-K-E-N-A underscore Morley. That's M-O-R-L-E-Y. Give her a follow. Let her know what you guys thought about the episode. I'm sure she'd love to hear from you. Um guys, the best way you could support the podcast if you're enjoying these episodes and some of the changes we've been making lately, is to give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcasts. And you can also support us by supporting our brand partner, Ultimate Direction. If you hop on ultimatedirection.com right now, if you uh or thinking of a loved one or yourself or in the market for uh some new apparel or vest, any type of hydration solution, if you use code Steepstuff Pod, that's one word Steep Stuff Pod, it's gonna get you 25% off your cart. Uh so yeah, hop on Ultimate Direction, lots of new vests. It is the holiday season, so if you're looking for a new vest or belt or apparel for your loved one, that's the spot to go check out. Use code Steep Stuff Pod, one word for 25% off. Uh guys, thanks so much for tuning in.