The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#161 - Michelino Sunseri
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What happens when raw talent, relentless prep, and an unfiltered voice collide with a sport increasingly driven by optics? We sit down with elite trail runner and coach Michelino Senseri to talk wins, world teams, a headline-grabbing Grand Teton FKT, and what the culture gets wrong—and right—about mountain running today. It’s an honest, funny, and deeply practical conversation that moves from emus on leashes to cameras on social trails, from pacer debates at Western States to how influencer marketing is reshaping who gets seen and paid.
Michelino opens up about the craft of coaching: building durable athletes with VO2 work, smart plyometrics, and week-over-week progress you can actually feel. We dig into why human coaching still matters in an AI world, how accountability beats templates, and the difference between training that looks good online and training that actually moves the needle. If you care about performance, this is a masterclass in process over hype.
We also go deep on injury and return-to-form strategy. Michelino breaks down living and racing with bulging discs, the tug-of-war between extension and decompression approaches, and what eight to twelve weeks of patient, consistent work can do for your spine and your season. Then we look ahead: CCC on the calendar, selective FKTs, a potential Grand Teton docuseries with too much story for a one-hour cut, and writing that may grow into a book.
If you’re tired of staged narratives and want the signal without the noise, this one’s for you. Hit play for candid insights on coaching, culture, access, and how to stay grounded while getting fast. If you enjoyed the conversation, follow Michelino on Instagram, check out his coaching at mikelinosenseri.com, and don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review to support the show.
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Introducing today's guest, the 2023 Broken Arrow 46K Champion, the 2019 Speedgoat 50K Champion, the 2021, 2023, and 2024 Rut 50K Champion. He's also most recently a member of the men's short trail team for Team USA competing over in Con Frank, Spain. And he's probably best known for his Grand Teton FKT that he set back in 2024. He is my friend, coach, and uh his name is Mikelino Sanseri. Guys, I hope you enjoy this one. Without further ado, Micelino Sanseri. Ladies and gentlemen, we all right, Michelino Sensari. Welcome to the Steve Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man? Good, dude. Happy to be here, Mr.
SPEAKER_00:James L'Oriello.
SPEAKER_01:It's good to see you, buddy. It's uh I feel like we haven't done one of these in a while. So usually it's uh a race preview or something crazy. So it's good to just catch up and shoot the shit and see how you're doing, dude.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I don't even know what we're gonna talk about, but uh it's been a minute. It's definitely been a minute.
SPEAKER_01:I was writing down, I was trying to write down stuff earlier. I was like, huh, this will be a cool topic. This will be different.
SPEAKER_00:Uh dude, honestly, like who I feel like everybody's sick of talking about running. Like, we should probably talk about the Epstein files. Like, I I don't know. Are there any runners in the Epstein files, dude? Like, let's talk about the fun shit. Like, quit talking about running, you know? I've been dying to this. What's your favorite animal? Oh, that's a good question. Uh sloth. I feel like I I identify as a sloth. Yeah, people argue with me on that one, but I think I kind of look like a sloth a little bit too. So I would I would have to go sloth for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Sloth.
SPEAKER_02:All right, all right.
SPEAKER_01:I thought you were gonna go with like husky energy or something because of your dogs. That's why I was a little on the fence there. I didn't know what you were gonna go with. Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. It's illegal to own sloths, I'm pretty sure. I haven't actually looked into it, but it's probably illegal, expensive, all of the above.
SPEAKER_01:Listen to this. This weekend, we were my wife and I were walking down the street in Manitou Springs, and a lady had a pet emu, dude. I shit you not. Had a pet emu. She was walking an emu? Walking an emu. I swear to God, walking an emu. And I was like, I first off, I asked her, I was like, is that an emu or a cassawary? And she's like, like proceeded to explain the difference between an emu and a castleary, and it blew my mind. Apparently, Castlewares will kill you. Anyway, this emu saw the dog.
SPEAKER_00:A Castleberry? That sounds like an actual berry.
SPEAKER_01:Cassawary, Cassawary.
SPEAKER_00:Cassawari. Oh, okay. I think he said a castleberry. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And so like the dogs were like freaking out, and this thing was like making noises and like getting like it was it was crazy. It was crazy. I was never expecting the middle of Colorado to see see uh an emu. So that was the highlight of my weekend.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was pretty good. Do you think if I I don't know, if I had an emu, I'd probably get like you know those bulldog collars with like the silver spikes around it, like the black collar, silver spikes. I would totally get an emu and put one of those on it and like give it a little mohawk, like a little faux hawk mohawk. That'd be sick.
SPEAKER_01:It was gonna have like a proper. I think this one's name was Dick.
SPEAKER_00:Oh shit. That's a good Dennis. That's a good one. Maybe Jonathan. Jonathan! Jonathan, get back here. Yeah, like a little autistic emu named Jonathan. That'd be pretty fun.
SPEAKER_01:That would be cool. So my my dream one day is to buy like a uh or have a small like acre of like a few acres of land in like Wyoming. And I would totally have an emu on it. Like that would be sick. Dude, yeah. Dogs wouldn't know what to do with it. Like, what is this large flightless bird? Like, what do I do with this thing?
SPEAKER_00:It's a large flightless bird. I think if it's yeah, goats, goats, emu, uh, you gotta have chickens, you gotta have the dogs, you gotta have big old great pyrenees to like, you know, stave off the wolves. Yeah. Let's start a compound, man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's right. That's right. I mean, who knows, dude? I think Wyoming is a place to go. No state income tax. It's uh certainly yeah, a lot better than Colorado. Dude, did you know in Colorado? I I don't know if you heard about this. I had a buddy told me, uh buddy that lives a bit older. They're putting uh, I guess Green Mountain has a lot of like uh social trails on it, and they're like trying to kick people off the social trails. So they're putting uh they're putting like cameras on the trails to like make sure people don't take the social trails.
SPEAKER_00:Are you freaking serious? You gotta keep the kooks off the trails, man. Keep the kooks off the trails. It's kind of funny, yeah. Yeah. Land of the free, baby. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Boulder's a wild place. I was like, you couldn't even beg me to go up there. Are you that's nuts? That's that's uh govern me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, geez. Yeah. Well, you gotta check, you gotta check into that because that's a a little that's outrageous.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like this is like that's like reporting. I feel like I need to do like uh like tangible journalistic stuff on that, like work. So who are they catching? That's what I want to know.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, they're catching every anybody who listens to this podcast, probably. They're catching them.
SPEAKER_01:It's like the bigfoot shot of Justin Simone, just like in the background, like they're just like all these like people in the podcast that they're they're they're getting after.
SPEAKER_00:So I mean what a what a yeah. So what what side do you take? Like, do you think they should be doing that? Putting up cameras on the on the trails to catch people going off trail on social trails? Or and and honestly, at the end of the day, like who's gonna if people are still using the social trails and they're still there and people are probably gonna use them anyways, like why waste the time and money? You know?
SPEAKER_01:So I'll give you a funny story. There's a um there's a sick quarry in the spring. It's like we don't have a lot of like really steep roads, like like like a 15% grade road, like you would have like a ski resort. So in my long runs lately, which you've you've seen probably, um I'll throw in, I'll throw in like this quarry, the sick quarry. And like it goes above, like it's it's obviously a quarry, so like a lot of stuff is like broken down. So you get up on there and it's it's tops out like 8,000 feet, but it's uh there's like no tree up trees up there. It's like kind of like feels like it's above treeline, so it feels like it's much higher than it actually is, and it's pup, it's private property. Like, so I'm jumping barbed wire because it's like it's such a sweet route. So of course I'm trespassing to go on there, and there's cameras all over the place, and I like wave to the camera, give it like smiley face, like all the time, and like never once has anything popped up. So I feel like I've admitted probably admitting to a trespassing crime on this podcast, but it's like, dude, how much can you? Like, this is this is like a little bit of a dude.
SPEAKER_00:You'd be surprised, man. You'd be surprised.
SPEAKER_01:I don't want to get into it.
SPEAKER_00:Honestly, honestly, the like we are so close to freaking Palantir, Apple, uh, Google, uh, ATT, all of these companies all working together to be able to triangulate every single thing you do. And then if you do anything wrong, dude, boom, they're gonna take away from your uh universal basic income that's incoming here pretty quickly. Your social credit score is going down, bro.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know 20 points for running on the trail. Are you kidding me?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm very sorry, you're you're not allowed to eat for the next week. We just took away 20 credits. We we caught you trespassing.
SPEAKER_01:Oh dude, and I feel like that's where we're headed, dude. It's it really is. It's actually terrifying. Yeah, I I I'm very against the whole let's set up cameras on social trails. Like, this is public land. I I feel very strongly about that. The one or two people that like actually go on the social trail are just trying to get away from the crowds to get good training in, more or less. It's not actually doing anything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, well, you can the the annoying the annoying part too is like there's there's a reason there's social trails places is because there's something at the other side that somebody wants to get to, you know? Yeah. And like all of our all of our brains don't click the same exact way, right? Like some of us go for efficiency as opposed to, you know, taking taking the acenic route, I guess you could say. Like some of us are just wired differently. So it's like, yeah, we just, you know, want to go the way that makes the most sense. Like, which way would my dogs go? You know, my dogs would go straight fucking through because it's efficient, fast, smart, and right, you know. Why why wouldn't we do the same thing?
SPEAKER_01:Dude, you it's a very uniquely American thing that it like because I mean I just had Jackson Cole in the podcast, and he and I rip on this all the time. Oh, nice. Apparently, I didn't know he did T1 Up this year and just like totally rip down like every non, like every every cut every switchback on there just to make a point for fun. It's like, oh my god. And then like talked about the podcast. It's like this is great. Uh, but anyway, he and I'm sorry, it's like such a uniquely American thing with like switchbacks and with uh like staying on trail and stuff like that. Like in every other country, like nobody gives a shit. Yeah, I I don't know what what people get so upset for. I mean, um there's gonna be a lot of people after this that are like, oh well, dude, like the allied ecosystem.
SPEAKER_00:No, I think, dude, I think it's I think it's important to note that there are arguments for staying on trails in certain places, right? There's arguments for it, right? Um, you know, to not uh damage the ecosystem, I guess, or to you know keep things uh I guess that's it. I don't know. But at the end of the day, like, does it really damage the ecosystem? Like, come on, guys, like it's gonna like the world was here way before we were, and it's gonna be here way after as well. And I don't know if you know how mountains are made, you know, but usually when the tectonic plates start making big mountains, things happen and they actually erode and uh you know they don't they don't actually stay that way forever. And I'm not gonna lie, like us as humans, we're very insignificant. I think that nature and mother nature is actually uh going to do much more damage in the long run or much more healing, you know? So I think it's kind of wild how fucking hubristic humans are. Like the fact that we try to put rules on nature and like we try to place rules around mountains. It's like the mountain doesn't give a shit about you. The mountain doesn't care about you, dude. Like, and you and you're gonna sit here and cry about somebody going off trail. I don't know. Sorry, we're getting are we getting off topic? No, this is a trail podcast. This is the topic.
SPEAKER_02:I promised you I was gonna stay away from this.
SPEAKER_01:Oh god. Oh god. Yeah, no, it's no humans are weird to begin with, dude. I was thinking about this, I was actually having this conversation with my mom earlier. We were talking about like money or something like that, and I was just thinking about like how people are so monetarily motivated uh in certain things and like greed, what I'm trying to get at is like some greed. I was just like, dude, like the reason a lot of the things are the way they are now is because like private equity and all kinds of shit. And just like if people just like focused on some of like their own art and good things and like just trying to enrich their own lives, like the world would be such a better place.
SPEAKER_00:Like, oh yeah, yeah, it's it's wild, dude. Oh dude, like yeah, like um Super Bowl halftime show, right? Oh yeah, like have your have your opinions about politics, whatever, but like appreciate the art of it all too. Like that was fucking fun, dude. Like, I enjoyed that. That was like, I don't know, you kind of felt like you took a step into Central America, you know? Like you you took a step into Puerto Rico, you know, like it was actually a lot of fun. I liked it. Like that's art, you know? Like, keep the politics and all that shit out of that.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, why do we politicize everything now? Like, I I this is something that's been on my mind. And you and I talked about this stuff, like buying, you know, like in group chats and stuff. And I don't know, like you've got people trying to say the uh the burrito league's racist now, and I'm just like, whoa, why can't why can't we just get along and just be we cannot have nice things, dude? Oh my god. I was like, dude, like how did you get from X to Y to Z with that comment? Like and uh that video, and if you people are listening to this, if you want to like look for it, you can find it on. I think it was actually taken down, but like I'm just like getting to the point now where like and I think Finn, of all people, actually made a great uh statement. He was just like, hey, this is uh like we're just a community just trying to get together to support one another. Like, no there's no dislike, there's no hatred, like yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I I 100% man, it's so silly. Like, I I saw like people leave comments trying to like call out Courtney DeWalter and like saying, like, I can't believe Courtney hasn't said anything about this. And it's like, I don't know, it's it's weird how people will use their own like feelings, thoughts, ideologies to try to like place that on other people and say, like, well, you have to do this because of your position in the world. It's like, well, life's nuanced, you know, like our opinions, our thoughts, everything's nuanced, and you can agree, disagree. But at the end of the day, like, I think we can all agree that if you're doing something for happiness, for community, and for joy, like why do we have to attack that? You know, like why are we trying to put people down and attack people for you know going and running laps in front of a freaking Chipotle?
unknown:You know?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's a weird enough thing to begin with, and that's fine.
SPEAKER_01:It's just like, yeah, I can't.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, make fun of them for that. Don't call them racist, though. It's like, dude, if you want to go run a hundred miles in front of a Chipotle, you're a crazy person. I respect the hell out of it. Like, good for you. Go get it, man. But yeah, the racism, I don't know. But then again, I'm a white dude, so what do I know?
SPEAKER_01:Stretch. That's true, that's true. I'm uh I'm an I well, you're an Italian too, so yeah. Yeah, dude, wild, wild. Dude, we should I and this is this goes on the piggyback of uh the conversation you and I had a couple weeks ago about like you having your own podcast. I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, we you should have your own show that like Michelino questions everything. That's that's really what it should be.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that'd be fun.
SPEAKER_01:Or like, like we had the part in my take one, but I thought that was a good idea too. But like, yeah, you should just have one where you just you just like throw out ideas and just be like, well, just debug.
SPEAKER_00:But see, dude, the problem that's like one of the problems I've seen in the world of running and trail running itself is like you can't really be extremely ideological or like have you know nuanced opinions. You kind of like have to go with the crowd, you know, if you want to, you know, do the sponsor thing and do all that. I think if you're um I don't know, if you make too much noise, I mean brands don't like that. Luckily, um, for anyone listening, I am unsponsored and I am a free agent, so uh got some conversations going. But if anybody wants to slip in the DMs, let me know. Uh anyways. But yeah, it's uh I don't know, dude. It's like kind of a weird world where it's like if you if you do try to like, if you do bring things up, talk about things, whatever, like it's it's kind of hard as an athlete when you're relying on these mega corporations to send you a paycheck, and then it's like if you don't agree with them or you make too much noise or people complain about you, then it's like that's your job security, you know. So now that I don't have to worry about any of that, I mean, yeah, may as well just you know talk some trash, uh have some fun with it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it dude just be you. Like, I I think that's the problem that I see. This is actually one of the huge things I I uh problems I do see in the running community. And it's it's it's like not I don't know, it you have to look for it in certain places and you will see it. Most of the time, like the athletes that are at the tip of the spear of the sport like don't give a shit, they're just out there doing their thing. But you do see it in like pronounced in a lot of ways where like if you don't toe the line and say the things and agree with exactly what the uh say the the mainstream like a great example would be like Dylan with Free Trail. You will never catch a hot take out of Dylan's mouth and he because he toes the line. No, and it and rightfully so he's got the big he's got the biggest media conglomerate uh there is in the sport. Finn is a little more like willing to speak his mind, but doesn't sway very strongly one way or another. Um, I feel like of the media spaces, not a lot or of the media platforms at not a lot of people are willing to be like, well, fuck this, like and actually put their opinion out there or say something that they just dude.
SPEAKER_00:The the next I mean obviously the next aid station guys, because they don't rely on sponsors like they're self-made dudes, like they they have money, they have jobs, they can say whatever the fucking hell they want, they can do whatever they want. It's like that's awesome. And they I mean they obviously get some flack for that too, because you know, they tend to be a little more right-leaning, and you know, that's fine. You know, we love everybody, but yeah, that would be you, you you just can't you gotta have like a little bit of uh you know bumpers on, you know. You you go you just can't really just let the ball fly. You know, you really gotta, you know, put some uh I don't know, it's hard because I've I've I literally I swear to god, like the last you know five, six years on social media, it's like you try to not like personally, you know, I would try to not say things or like not stir the pot, not repost things because I'm like, oh well, what's my sponsor gonna think? Or what's somebody gonna is somebody gonna see this and I'll get in trouble for you know something you know very negligent? Like, but you do have to think those things.
SPEAKER_01:If I was to like call anybody out and be an asshole, like I'm pretty sure I'm getting a call the next day or within those hours, and hey James, it's been nice working with you, but see you later. Like, and like you want to be a um I don't know, like a good role model, like I understand that aspect, but also like I don't know, I'm very much a uh a believer I'm a believer in two things. One, like people take things so seriously, and it's like why can't we laugh at ourselves and like have a joke? People don't like jokes anymore, dude. Like I think make fun of everything, and I think it's everything's hilarious, yeah, including myself, and people don't like that anymore. Like, I try to crack jokes about a lot of stuff, and like it's uh we've got to be serious, gotta be, you know, gotta take it.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, stick to your lane, dude. Uh you can stay in your lane.
SPEAKER_01:Like Frank and I, like your brother and I like joke about literally some of like the worst stuff possible. It's hilarious. And he's got the like one of the funniest senses of humor ever. Um, like for instance, and when he had his Teddy Tonelli thing that he was he was rolling with, is it's like I thought that was really unique and really funny.
SPEAKER_00:And no one would have to do it. Yeah, and then he and then he got a girlfriend, dude. He got a girlfriend, and now he just he doesn't have time anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, that could have been such a big show, too. I keep telling him, I almost texted him today. I was like, dude, bring season two, like make it happen. Like, come on. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's fun, it's fun. Everything's so serious in the running world. Like, I don't know. Personally, I don't I like that's one of the things. Um it it's kind of just I don't know, running's funny because it's like it's the same story, like over and over, like not the same story, but obviously the same arc over and over and over. It's like, oh, you know, runner gets injured and blah, blah, blah, has a hard road to recovery, comes back, trains hard, wins this race. Like, it's all sorts of that kind of shit. It's like the same regurgitated story over and over and over again. And like it's kind of, I don't know, I'm kind of getting over it, you know. Like, I think that maybe that's why 200s have blown up in the last few years, is because we've we've already we've already done all the media and we've already done everything around the hundred mile races, you know. Like when do you like when do you stop doing like all the like when I don't know, like eventually the stories kind of become the same thing and get boring, you know? Like, so maybe that's why everything's political now is so we can keep it spicy.
SPEAKER_02:You know?
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's it's weird, dude. Like, I don't know, how many times do I need to hear about I mean I and there are certain athletes in the sport that can run a hundred miles like relatively fast, right? But it's like, how many times do I need to hear about the same thing where you ran a hundred miles and it was really hard? And you then just like one little nuancey twist to it, and it's basically the same story, right? Oh, you did hard rock. You basically we're just doing videos for people that run hard rock now for the sake of the fact that they just get into the race, right? Because it's so hard to get in. Um, and it's it's you can draw the same thing with Western states with the competition level or like maybe UTMB. Um honestly, dude. The last really good uh and we could actually this is a pretty good uh segue to your uh racing Grand Teton video, but um the last like really good heroes journey that I think I've seen was probably Jim's video uh that he had uh that they came out with a few years ago with uh Hoka and Blahu. I don't know if you would agree, but like with him winning UTMB, like that one felt like I felt that. Like the coming up short and then actually like trying so many times and then finally, finally breaking through and making it happen. Like that one stuck with me. But I haven't have felt like it's hard to feel something. You want to feel something from these videos, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, dude, the world of ultrarunning is no longer about running fast, it's about telling people how fast you run. It doesn't really hot take. Like if you you will you will you don't exactly dude, you don't like you don't gain followers, you don't gain any of the social media, the the money from the sponsors or anything. You have a better chance of doing all that if you just make stories and tell people you're fast, as opposed to like actually going out and running anymore. Like it seems like the like the level the level of Like elite sponsored athletes versus you know hobby joggers and Instagram influencers, like it is shifting drastically, dude. Like I get like there's gotta be, there's gotta be I there's probably Instagram influencers that are making far more money, like on average, than the actual professional trail runner. Like it's I don't know, it's a weird world. It's all about marketing, dude. Nobody gives a shit how fast you run. Like, dude, one thing I saw today, um I was looking at uh uh single track. Finn put out a Instagram poll about what the PTRA is talking about having uh elite races, how you can't have they don't want people to have uh pacers at them, like Western states. Um so the one thing that stuck out to me is there was only there's only like 140 members in the PTRA. Like that doesn't seem like that many. Like I don't know. And like, and then the fact that how many people abstain vote? I don't know. What do you what do you think about that in the in the large scheme of things? I would be interested in seeing like of who voted, who's actually ran Western states, right? Like that would be a fun little thing to see in there too.
SPEAKER_01:Well, who's first of all, like we'd have to see like what's the composition of membership? I know because contracts are kind of all over the board, dude. Of the 140 people, are any of these 140 people, well, what percentage of them actually make a living off the Spartan? What percentage of them uh have a contract, but also don't, you know, also have other jobs and try to balance things. So it's it's where do we draw the line at like what's a professional, what's not, and who are we, who are they letting in as the PTR? 140 does not seem like a lot, but maybe that's just I don't know what their criteria is to even let people as far as membership goes. And yeah, I totally agree. You should either be well on your way to getting into Western states or have been an al I I would consider yourself like an alumnus of that race in order to vote on any of that stuff, like particularly for and that's a very uniquely another uniquely American thing is the pacer situation. That's not a thing in your in Europe, right? I mean, not to my knowledge.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I mean, if we if we want to take the two biggest, you know, put UTMB versus Western states, then no, right? UTMB, there's no pacers. Which I mean, I don't know why, why can't we just say, like, like, why do you want to change the history of the longest standing hundred mile race in the United States? Like, why are you trying to change the history now? Like, let people have pacers. Who gives a shit? Like, leave it alone, have fun, go race UTMB, go race the how many numerous other hundred milers? Like, why does why does a PTRA even think they should get involved in something like that?
SPEAKER_01:It's actually this big led to a bigger question is um, are we just gonna get to the point with races where they're just all elite races and like normal people? Because like this is my big question with this is are we gonna get to the point where it's just all elite races and no other people can race those types of races? Which is that I'm sure that has argument and legs to it. But at the same time, what about that's what that's what worlds is?
SPEAKER_00:That's what worlds is, that's what the Olympics is, like that's what all that is. So it's like yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I I don't agree with it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, like obviously worlds has its own standing, a lot of the Olympics has its own thing. But I think of like, all right, well, what about dudes and girls trying to like get their name on this like into the spotlight? Like how do people make their names in the sport? And you wouldn't be able to do that if it's just a well, you have to have a sponsor, you have to have this, you have to have this UTMB index to get in, right? It's like how do people even get started out? So it's complicated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I if anything, running is probably one of the easiest sports, though, to get started out, right? Like you don't need a team necessarily, like it helps to have a team, obviously, but you don't need a team. Like you you can still literally just go get you could probably go to the thrift store or go to your local sporting goods secondhand store and go get a vest and shoes, and you could probably get a full setup and everything for you know under a couple hundred bucks and like go train and sign up for a race. And but then it's in the nutrition and everything, like unless you're like scumbagging it and just you know doing some countrytime lemonade and whatnot, it's it's kind of difficult. Yeah. I don't know, is is running is running becoming like more of a wealthy sport? Like, is UTMB kind of forcing this sport to become extreme like for the for the privileged and the wealthy? Because like I don't remember it that way. Like I remember all the group runs I used to go on back in, you know, like high school, college, meeting up with the local, uh, local runners, be fucking wearing like a long sleeve cotton t-shirt, have no water, have like hand-me-down shorts, and just go for a run. And you just go out for two hours and it'd be a freaking blast. And now it's like, you know, like I feel like the whole culture of it has changed, dude.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.$500 watch, two, three hundred dollar shoes, you know, you got a$70 chorus armband. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, it adds up, man. Dude, that actually, I mean, that would that could be a cool program too. If somebody started a program where you have elites like cycle their shoes and send their shoes into this place, and then you just have somewhere where, you know, aspiring athletes or young kids or someone can actually go get a pair of shoes that, you know, were worn by an elite runner. That's kind of cool. And then, you know, because usually I don't think, I don't know, like I I've had some shoes that I've retired probably before their time, and like usually go drop them off at Goodwill. And like, there's actually some good stuff there too. So, like, imagine if you had like a database where everybody sends their shoes and you could send off shoes to kids and you know, Africa, whatever, and like have I don't know, that's kind of cool. People, I think we all do it just like not centralized. It's everybody's just doing it themselves.
SPEAKER_01:Everybody needs to give them or like what are you training sponsors, dude? It's like, did you I don't know, did you keep a bunch of your North Face shit, or did you just like give us a goodwill?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I put a good amount of stuff up for sale on Facebook Marketplace, but also dude, like I had I have so many pieces of gear that like I've had for six years, you know. Like I have some pieces of gear that I freaking love that are North Face that I'm never gonna get rid of because like the amount of memories I've made in all of this stuff. Yeah, like I got some awesome things that I've had for a long time. I'll never get rid of them. But I did, I mean, some of the extra stuff and like you know, things that samples and things that are you know too bright of colors, things that I would never wear anyways. Like I haven't given that all away for years. Like on the like group runs in the Tetons, I would have somedays show up, you know, always have you know, uh cooler full of beer, always. But then a lot of the time I'd have like my big old cardboard box full of all the North Face gear that you know isn't really my style, you know, just constantly giving it away to people. So that's kind of yeah. But now no, I don't have as much stuff anymore.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, I mean I purge all the time, dude. I went through my uh I have like to the right of me this giant gear closet of just shit that I go through, and it's just like running stuff from like years and years and years that you just accumulate. And you just yeah, I I sent Froze with a giant bag to Goodwill yesterday just because I I I don't like having a lot of stuff. I like to keep things pretty simple, but uh you know, I feel like more stuff in life just complicates life, you know. I like to keep it simple, like you know, very few years.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's good to good to shed your skin often.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. All right, let's shift gears, dude. I want to talk to you about coaching. Um I've talked, I think I've talked about this on the podcast. I've said you were my coach before, and we've been working together for a bit now, which has been super fun. Um, dude, you finally got your you got your website going. I was looking at that today, mikelinosenseri.com. Um, you know, shameless plug there. But like if uh let's talk about coaching, dude. Like I think that probably one of the things people know the least about you is that you're an amazing coach. You're a brain, like you have a degree in kinesiology, you know your shit. Um maybe let's talk about that. I think that's a that's a fun little talking point.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. Uh oh, I guess uh yeah, I did finally finish my website. Like tech is hard, dude. And then I I actually uh one of my athletes I'm coaching, uh I was telling him about this. And he he he he was bugging me months ago. He's like, he's like, dude, if you ever need help, just let me know. And I was like, all right, yeah, yeah. And then like I keep putting it off and getting into other things, and like it's just so hard to get back to doing it. So then finally I hit him up yesterday, and uh yeah, he helped me helped me make a website and bust it out in like three, four hours, dude. Like, so I was like, sweet, like that was so efficient. Why didn't I hit you up months ago? Uh yeah, shout out, shout out to Nick. Uh, good dude. Um but yeah, coaching. Uh coaching's fun, dude. I don't know. You you tell me how do you how how are things going? Are you feeling like are you feeling good? I know you left a comment uh yesterday because we're kind of getting into an intro to plymetrics phase. And uh what I think one of your one of your strength training workouts a few weeks ago, you put a comment like, oh, I did like you know some extra box jumps and you know this and that. And I was like, oh, I was like, well, hey, stop it, stop, stop. Hold on, like let's let's pull back, like let's intro to this before we start like doing these explosive movements and and then uh what yeah, we took a little step back yesterday, plyometric workout. And I don't know, how did you feel? Did you have fun? That was that was the one word you wrote that I was like, oh, nobody usually writes that the workout was fun, so I like that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, first of all, I was gonna text you yesterday. I was gonna be like, oh, this is this is like we need to beef this up a little bit because it was only like what six or seven movements or something like that. And then this morning I woke up and I was like, well, I'm a little sore in different places of like different like from different things. Like I tried to get creative with like some of like the squat jumps and stuff like that. Um yeah, I I loved it, dude. It was super fun. Um on the topic of coaches, yeah. Like we're we start what our whole we roll into another VO2 block uh starting next week, which is super cool. We're we just kind of this is like a down week that we're working on right now, and I've had a blast, dude. Like it's been um like it's crazy. I'm seeing myself like my fitness level now and we're in February, like at like where it was when I was peaking last year. So like definitely we've come a long way as far as me just feeling better, more consistent. You know, everything is seems to be on target for summer races, and yeah, I feel great. Body's holding up good, no, no aches, pains, or issues. And yeah, I just feel good. It's it's uh I think that's the name of the game. Like, there's no need to peak now, so we're just putting all the stacking all the bricks for uh summer racing.
SPEAKER_00:So hell yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I brag about you to Jasmine often. I'm like, God, James is like literally the perfect athlete to coach. I was like, he does like he does everything to the T and I love it. I was like, and it's just like he's he's healthy, he's getting stronger, we're seeing things like progress, you know, monthly, weekly, all the time. And I don't know. I was bragging about you a little bit. It's pretty uh I appreciate you, too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm obsessed, man. I'm so like, I swear to fucking god, like if I don't like do like I and I this is not like uh make it or break kind of thing, but like I I really feel like this is the year, like it's gonna happen this year, and I'm super stoked on that. Like I'm very uh just obsessed with it. It's like I go to sleep every day and like I'm checking the schedule. I'm like, all right, this is what we got tomorrow. Waking up and I'm like, all right, how do we uh you know, how do we go the extra mile or the extra extent to like make this uh make this happen? And so yeah, it's it's fun, dude. It's a good partnership. I'm I'm taking it.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, process process over outcome, man. The process is the fun part. That's true. That's true. That's true.
SPEAKER_01:It's funny because that's a true myself. Yeah, sorry.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, you go, you go, you go.
SPEAKER_00:I was gonna kind of like swerve the conversation slightly, but you finish your thought and then we'll go.
SPEAKER_01:No, I was just gonna say we gotta we got, I mean, it's fun to have time, right? Like it's just we could just stack block after block after block, and it's just fun to see the bit of fitness accumulate.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I totally agree. Uh no, I was thinking um, no, I had a conversation with uh with uh Jack Kenzel last summer, and like we were kind of talking about coaching, and you know, I was telling him like, oh no, like you know, this is how many athletes I have, this is kind of what I want to do with it, but also I don't know if I want to keep coaching because of, you know, because of AI, because of Chat GPT, because of freaking Gemini, because of all these different, you know, AI agents that can, you know, these are LLMs that can go and make you a training plan. Um, and I was talking to Jack about it, and he's like, well, no, he's like, dude, he's like, this is exactly the time when people do need good coaching. He's like, there are not, and like, I yeah, I don't want to put anyone down, but it's like, he's like, there's not a lot of great coaches out there. Like there are there are some good coaches, there's a lot of mediocre coaches, there's a lot of people who have literally no degree and no background in exercise science or kinesiology, physical therapy, anything. Yet they, you know, you can go online and go get a freaking certification that says you're a uh a coach and it's easy, you know, like anyone can do it. Like at least that's what they offer, and it's just a business, you know, they're trying to sell you their programs so that you can, you know, pay them money to say you're a coach. But, anyways, um he was telling me, he's like, Yeah, dude, there's not like a lot of great coaches right now, so now is the time to actually like be a good coach and like actually buckle down and be a human, right? Like you can go to you can go to AI, ChatGPT, and formulate a plan, right? Like you can go put something together and it'll you know shoot out a you know 12 week, 16 week plan for you. But the thing is, like it's not unless you have an agent that you've developed yourself that's gonna remember everything you're saying, like I think ChatGPT does that. Like it's it's kind of hard to have a robot tell you how to train your body and not have somebody, you know, that can, you know, that's been there, that's heard about this, that's done this, that knows, you know, what exactly is going on to like, you know, actually give you a more you know human answer to things.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, no, 100%.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it and but like you know, part of me was like, Yeah, I don't know if I want to coach anymore because of chat GPT. And then Jack was like, no, dude, he's like, we now is the time to actually have better coaches. So then I was like, yeah, I think you're you're actually right. I was like, I think a lot of it, a lot of it at the end of the day is like people do want to have a personal relationship with somebody who's been there, who's done it, who's helping them, who's who's watching, who's you know, constantly creeping on people's stravas and you know what time they're running, where they're running. Uh I'm a total creep, dude. Like I wanna uh I'm actually I'm coaching uh I'm helping Connor uh Burksmith out with a plan right now because he's he's got a he's got a big goal in the Tetons this uh this year. So uh I was I I was in final surge and I saw he didn't do his workout and we share locations. So it was like 8:30 last night. So I went and like got on my phone and looked at his location. And sure as shit, he's going up Snow King doing his workout at like 8:30 at night. Yeah, so I sent him a text. I was like, dude, hell yeah. I was like, I'm so stoked for you. And then he got, yeah. But like I don't know, little things like that is I don't know, it's fun, dude. And like like going back to the conversation. I don't know if he puts anything on Strava. I don't even gonna look at Strava anymore, really. So I gotta, yeah. I'm mostly just locked in the final search.
SPEAKER_02:You're terrible.
SPEAKER_01:No, I dude, I'm I'm obsessed. Like, I'm with Strava. Like, I I was gonna ask you about this. Why are you you're you're Strava Dark now, dude. Since like November, October. I miss you on there.
SPEAKER_02:What's going on?
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I would piss you off right now with all the shit I'm uploading. It's obnoxious. Like it's like I uh I mean, mostly, yeah. No, most of my things right now are all just you know, weightlifting, sauna, like cross-training. I uh what I I threw my back out, and uh it's been like like I've had I've had injuries before and running injuries and like typical running injuries, but this is an injury that like dates back to a nasty car crash I had like three, four years ago. And it's like every every year it seems to come back around, and every time it gets worse and worse, it seems. So now I'm like, yeah, the last few months have just been like, all right, like we're freaking handling this right now and like we're doing all the things so that this never happens again. Because like I am so sick of my back pissing me off. So it's like, I don't know, it's the perfect time of year for it because like, you know, I can just buckle down and not have to worry about racing and whatnot, and I can really just focus on the you know core, uh, you know, still staying uh relatively fit on the bike, on you know, stair step or still running a little bit, you know, like 40 miles a week, 30, 40 miles a week, but like, yeah, I don't know. Straw of the dark, it's kind of annoying because everything I upload is I'd be uploading like three to five activities a day. And yeah. And nobody needs to know what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_02:That's true.
SPEAKER_01:I'll I'll post like one proof of life, like every now and then, just so people know that I still I think it's like, dude, they'll take away your pro badge if you don't. I mean, I haven't tested this out yet, but I know they'll take away your pro badge if you don't post at least I think it's like once a quarter or something like that. At least that that's really I don't know. Yeah, I don't know how true that is. I mean, you've beaten it because it's now two quarters in. So I don't think the algorithm got you yet.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Well, I'm still using it. Like I'm still on there every day. Like I'm still I'm still uploading shit, but it's not like you know, just not making it public. Do you get the emails though? Dude, I get the I was getting the emails there for a while.
SPEAKER_01:They're like, you have to uh like this is just like the generalized email that if you want to keep this, like you have to uh uh have a public profile and this like you have to like go through all this bullshit. It's I mean so far I haven't lost.
SPEAKER_00:So I think I mean I think there's a difference between having a public profile and then making activities public, right? Because when you make activities public or private, that's more of a security concern. So like if they tried to force you to make your activities public, like that's a security concern, dude. Like, how do I don't I don't want people knowing where I'm running? Like sure, you know you so like that's the same as now. Yeah, I'll get I'll go straight to jail, dude. Straight to jail.
SPEAKER_02:Uh no, but that was that was one thing.
SPEAKER_00:Strava, I do got a little bit of a beef with Strava, like all of those mapping apps, dude. Yeah, but we don't need to get into that. But anyways.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's a conversation for another day. I do have to ask you about that at some point. That's yeah, fucking Strava. Uh um Strava. We talked about we talked about the coaching, we talked about Michelina Censeri.com. This is something I wanted to cover. Um, are you taking on any athletes at the moment? Are you still looking for athletes or are you kind of just doing keep are you capped?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I mean, I got space for probably like three to five more. Like, I don't want it to be, you know, in terms of like how much time you spend per person, there's some there's some coaches that like they'll take on like over 50, 60, 70 athletes. And like I think that's totally wrong because there's no possible way you can give people the attention they deserve and like have any type of life yourself if you have that many people, right? Like I feel like if you're doing that, like so much of it's probably automated, copy and paste, and it's hard to have any type of specificity doing that. Like you can't give people the attention they deserve and be writing 50 freaking training plans. Like, there's no way, dude. So like I I I have a yeah, I have my limit for what I can handle capped. Um, but right now I'd probably I have space for three to five more athletes, I think. I mean, I don't know, it's been like one other, yeah. It becomes I don't know, the longer you do it, I think it does become easier. Like I've been coaching for, you know, what since 2020. So almost seven years now. I don't think I've ever made a a marketing post or said anything about it. Like it's kind of just you know fluctuated as the years have gone on, and you know, most a lot of my athletes have had for years and years. And like, you know, we've just worked together and keep the ball rolling and you know keep producing results. So it's like, I don't know, don't really need to put on, like, don't really need to market and get more athletes. But at the same time, now that uh, you know, now that I'm uh no longer a professional runner, um, you know, the extra income, the extra income's nice too. But also it's fun, dude. Like I actually really enjoy it. Like I get such a kick out of, you know, seeing people happy, excited, race well, and hit PRs. And, you know, at these, at the same time, like that does come with some negatives. Like there are times where people don't perform the way they want to and like things do go wrong. But then it's like, you know, those are those are the learning moments, those are the times where you look back and you say, all right, cool. Like this is what happened, this is how you feel. But we also have all this information of everything you've been doing over the past six months. So we can go back and like look and diagnose why you did not perform the way you wanted. You know, like we can go fix that. So I don't know. I think that's the most that's probably the most fun part about coaching is like even like fixing things that didn't go right the first time, right? Like making adjustments and like work, you know, I working with any coach, like anyone listening, if you're working with a coach or thinking about working with a coach, like you gotta give it six months to a year minimum. Like to get on, like to get under a program and like have somebody like try to help form you and your abilities into you know what you want out of it, who you want to be, what you want to raise, how how you want to compete, whatever, like it takes time. Like you have to you have to be diligent about things, and like it takes a while for you know, I mean, for for change. So it's like, yeah, give it give it some time, is what I'm saying. And uh yeah, it it takes a while.
SPEAKER_01:It does, it's and it's it's so interesting to me because I have, you know, like we all have people in our in our circle that you will come across and like they'll work with different coaches or switch coaches and do this, that, and the other. And it's like, um I don't know, like I have a buddy of mine that just changed coaches recently. He wanted to change coaches, and like we talked about this and we were chatting about it, and I was like, well, dude, you just switched from one program to another, and it's the same fucking thing. More or less. Like you're still like this previous coach was doing like most of their stuff off of like rate of perceived exertion. This current coach that they're working with, rate of perceived exertion, similar mileage, similar everything. It's just like, why did you switch? Like it's the same thing. Like I feel like if you want to work with someone, uh, and you know, athletes that are wanting to work with someone, like one of the reasons like I decided like I think you were a great fit for me is like one, you race a lot of the similar and you have raced and performed at a lot of the similar races that I plan to do well at. One of the things I really like about you too is obviously we're friends, we have good rapport, but also your um your approach to stuff, like one of the things that I always admired about you, it doesn't matter like what race it is, like you're very good, and I I think Worlds was a really good example. I think the Grand T Time was a great example too. You're very good at like planning and projecting stuff, and then showing up on a given day and like hammering it out of the park. And like, yeah, sure, worlds wasn't like the best day in the world, but like other things that you've done, you've had a lot of success at by like doing a lot, like projecting it and uh just kind of being obsessed with it. Like, dude, I remember talking to you before the grand, and you're like, I have names for my rocks going up. And I was like, give me fucking chills. I was like, this guy is this guy's a this guy's a nutcase. I was like, I that and that's what you need though. You need to work with people that are as obsessed with as the like as obsessed at this as like you are. Um, and I think that's where the good synergies happen when you find someone that's kind of on that same level or the same brain processes that uh that could think into it. So I just find it really interesting.
SPEAKER_00:So dude, I'm I'm literally right there with you. Like one person I emulate that does the same exact thing that you just said, uh, you know, Mr. Mr. Jack Kinzel himself. Like I've been, yeah, like I said, the back's been and yeah, dude, going back going back to worlds. I I did an MRI. Did I tell you this? I got an MRI a couple weeks ago, and uh had I've had two bulging discs for like I don't know how long, but I've been trying to race through it, I think since last July. So like literally for I know, and they never never ever got better. So it's like, yeah. Anyways, I'm just making excuses for why I had a shitty year last year, but it's true.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean you gonna get some stem cells or like what are you what are you thinking now? Because it's great for you now, but you don't have to be a little bit more than that.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I wish they're so expensive.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if expensive. Oh really?
SPEAKER_00:Uh no, we were looking, well, we were looking, we're like, oh maybe we can go to Mexico and get some stem cells. And then I looked and I was like, I can't, I can't afford that. Like, God no, dude. Yeah, so uh no, dude, I got a uh um okay, so I don't know. Do we want to get into back injury? Uh yeah, we can talk about it slightly. So like there's two two two methods of thought behind spinal injuries, and like I've been learning about all this because you know, as a runner, it's like you don't really like spinal injuries is not really a thing you deal with a lot of the time in running. Um, usually you're dealing with, you know, running injuries, like I T band syndrome, uh, plantar fasciitis. Um bulging discs is not a normal running injury. But no, one fun thing that I've learned is what there's like two different methods of thought on how to fix a bulging disc. And like one of them is, you know, essentially when you have that disc bulge, you're like literally, you know, the fluid that is working as the uh um uh compression state, what what word am I looking for? Um absorption in your back, right? Like it literally leaks out and like pops out, right? And then it you know touches your spine, your nerves, whatever. So like the two the two methods of thought behind fixing that are you know doing back extension to kind of like have the tissue like push it back in, or being on the other end of that and like elongating the spine and then creating like a vacuum-like effect to like suck it back in. So like I've been doing the former for months and months and months at a time with literally no results, and none of my PTs, none of my PTs thought I had anything like physically wrong. They're like, Oh, like yeah, we don't know. So then I got an MRI and they're like, Yeah, two bulging discs. So then I went to a new physical therapist who's like, yeah, you have like like these are pretty bad. Like I can see it on an MRI. That's how you know it's bad. But and then he, you know, he was talking about you know actually elongating the spine and creating space between um, you know, between your uh uh vertebrae there, and then like sucking the actual uh disc back in. So I got an inversion table. So I'm like, all right, cool. Maybe now I can you know try to put both of those thoughts together and like try to approach it in a way where it can maybe get this back injury finally better after freaking, I think it's been four or five years, dude, since that car accident. Where it's just like every year it comes back up. But anyways, we that was a little off topic and random, but back injuries, spine injuries, like it's the is like one more thing that I love about coaching and I love about the sport is like there's always like some type of new something or other to like kind of trigger your brain to start thinking in new ways and like try to find the answer for these problems. And like for me, doing that for myself, like yeah, I've been doing that my entire life, but then doing it for other people, like trying to trying to figure out like, okay, cool, you know, you've been having you know quad weakness, and you know, your quad feels like it's going limp for some reason, like, oh, like that's super weird. Like, let's look into that. Um, or like, oh, you know, this, this, or that. Like, it's like a puzzle, you know, like a lot of time it's a puzzle, like, and you just try to find the right movement that helps to to alleviate these symptoms, alleviate the pain, make this person better. And like, it's fun, dude. Like, it's it's a puzzle. It's it's an it can be frustrating because it's a slow puzzle, you know? Like any type of meaningful change in the body is gonna take eight to 12 weeks, usually. I mean, muscle, muscle, tendon, bone, like nothing heals as fast as we want it to, you know, it takes time. So, I mean, yeah, I don't know what I'm rambling about, but I like it. It's fun. No, I think it's good.
SPEAKER_01:I think this this is good for you, and in a sense too, where it's like, dude, you haven't had like a break break in a minute, especially everything that's gone on over the last few years. And now that you like actually have time to like work on yourself, work on the body, get it back to 100%, and there's no timetable on racing. Like, you can come back whenever you want now and go, whether it's June or whenever, it doesn't matter. Um, like obviously I know you have some goals that you're targeting, but like you have time, which is great. Uh, you know, it takes the pressure off, and it's also like you can just do your own thing, you don't have to worry about someone telling you what to do and how to do it, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, totally. That's the nice thing. I've been I'm I'm hope I will I will eventually start working with Jack. Uh that's the plan. And like it's been nice. Like we've been going back and forth, and he's been checking in on me. Like, hey, how's your back, buddy? Um, but once I'm 100% like what do they say? Like uh every therapist should have a therapist, you know. Like I think every every coach every coach should have a coach. Like the whole reason for having a coach and for having help in this sport is to have somebody looking out for you and looking at what you're doing and like looking at the big picture, right? And like I've been trying to do that for myself for so long that it's like you you get you get a little bit laxadaisical with the uh you know, with those guardrails with yourself and trying to coach yourself or having AI try to coach you, right? So like having somebody who cares, that's thoughtful, that is looking out after you, that can look at your plan and actually make adjustments or get you ready based off of where you are and where you want to go, like that's powerful. Like it's important. So yeah, like you were like you were saying about you know finding someone who's a bit of a a bit of a psychopath about you know being obsessive about racing. Like for me, I look at I think of that and I'm like, oh, Jack Kenzel.
SPEAKER_01:That's a dude, yeah. I mean there's there's not a lot of lunatics out there like yourselves. I mean, dude, you gotta think of it too as like uh like levels, right? Like I have a level that I'm certain trying to get to, right? You've already achieved like such a high level in the sport and like have been at the top of the sport and you know for a bit of time. Now it's like, okay, I need to figure out like how do I, you know, maintain my spot there and improve, which is not an easy thing to do. So yeah, you almost have to work with someone that's gonna help you get to that next level. And Jack's done it with Caleb, which has been really fun to follow. I mean, he's done it with a lot of athletes. So yeah, I Jack is and he's doing it with Dan Kurtz now too. Um, it's gonna be fun to see what Dan does this year. I think Dan is so underrated, dude. That kid is so good. Oh, dude, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. I don't think you're saying how good he is.
SPEAKER_00:No offense, no offense to anyone. He's he's hands down my favorite short distance runner, dude. Besides you, besides you.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, uh no, you Dan is uh Dan is legit um like one of uh like has the ability to be probably the best in the sport at some point in time. Oh yeah. Like talent-wise. He tried telling me he was on the pod one day, he goes, Yeah, I don't really see myself as talented.
unknown:Who do you see?
SPEAKER_01:That's what every every guy with talent says that, dude.
SPEAKER_00:Like just no, it's all about my hard work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Just casually drops a sub-four minute mile or like multiple sub-four minute miles off of Sinitas and Boulder. Like, who the fuck is this guy? Like, are you kidding me right now? Uh literally, he's so good. Um, I want to pivot pivot a little bit. Um is there any teases for 2026? Like, where can we if you want to give anything away? There's no there's no need to, but if there's anything you'd want to tease that where we where the audience might see you, you have a lot of fans now. People would maybe want to see you at some braces. Anything that you potentially might be at this year that you're kind of targeting?
SPEAKER_00:Uh the Antelope Island 25k. It's a super big, massive. No, actually, yeah, signed up for uh Finn sent me an invite to Antelope Island and to uh Twisted Fork. So I figured doesn't, you know, may as well sign up for those. Um I don't plan on being super competitive just because you know I'm at a different place right now in terms of my progression where I'm trying to where I'm trying to be. So I I won't be super competitive there. I mean, it's in like two months. So I mean, um yeah. But no, I'm gonna go do those races that Finn's putting on. And uh the big one for this year, I'm uh currently signed up for CCC, which I'm pretty freaking stoked about. Um, I feel like I've bombed every time I've gone over to race, you know, I've done OCC twice and both times have been absolute shit, which is also another reason why, you know, I'm like, hey, Jack, uh help me out here, bud. Um, but I think like I don't know, something about racing internationally, dude. Like, it's just not working for me, but we'll get there. It's a it's a learning, it's a learning curve, it's a process. Uh but no, CCC, uh, and then probably I've got a few different FKT projects I've been eyeing. Um trying to like hone down exactly which one makes the most sense, like especially, I don't know, like UTM, like CCC is right at that time of the year where you kind of have to spend July and August completely focused on it, especially if you want to do well. But also, like those are the best times to be in the mountains, like those are the weather windows for so many big FKTs. And then it's like you race at the end of August, and then September, even if you do have weather windows, you're totally beat up from 100k. So, like trying to like pick and choose and place things that make sense logically, and then also that lineup in terms of training is uh kind of the biggest question right now. But yeah, that's all really. CCC, Cape Town. I want to go back out to Cape Town. Uh I think World 2027 is out that way. So I think getting a, you know, obviously I'd like to go back and actually have a good race this uh this next time around. So I mean, I think probably the smartest thing to do is go out to Cape Town, go race 100k out there and get used to the trails and you know, try to throw down and you know, get to know the 100k distance a little bit better. Um yeah, so that's about it.
SPEAKER_01:I like I mean, dude, you've had success at uh at UTCT anyway. I mean, you've been on the podium at that race. So that's obviously you know, another couple times taking cracks at that. Like that'll set you up like proper for worlds, which would be dope. 2027 will be here before you know it, too.
SPEAKER_00:So time is my quick. No, dude, it it does, dude. Just one more reason why I'm like, all right, let's get everything like strong and dialed with the back now so that everything can just build off of that, and we don't have to like, you know, don't force anything, right? Yeah, get get to 2027 in one piece.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, question for you. Um, is there any tease that you can give for the Racing Grand Teton uh documentary that you're gonna be dropping? When when does it come out? Do you guys have a date yet? Or what's the what can you tell the audience?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I am completely uninvolved with really anything. Connor has been working on it. He's I think he put together he put together a skeleton, a skeleton cut, like not even really a first cut, but he put together a skeleton of just like the storyline and putting everything together. And he has like over six hours of a story with zero b-roll. Like he's he's done zero b-roll, like it's all just like content, and there's six hours. So we're like, ah shit, like our system. So I don't think it's I don't know. We'll see what it I think the original idea was to have it be like a three-part type docuseries. Um, and then we kind of switched up, like, oh well, we'll just do like a one hour kind of you know, one and a half hour film. And then he did all that, and he's like, I can't do a one-hour film. Like, there's just too much, like too much shit happened, like there's just a lot. So now it's kind of I think I think the guys are leaning more towards doing a like three-part series. Um, but yeah, I don't, I honestly have no idea. I mean, I think in you know, considering it is a unfortunately political thing, I think, you know, if we can try to release it sometime around the midterms and have like a little bit of a you know, a political push kind of thing to get people to watch it. And of course, like I don't want it to be political, dude. Like, that's so fucking stupid. Like mountain, like mountain shouldn't be political, but here we are. Um but yeah, anyway, so it'll it'll it might come out sometime around the midterms if we're you know if we're lucky. Um but yeah, we'll see.
SPEAKER_01:Interesting, dude. I like it. I appreciate the tease. Um question on your website, you had a link to your sub stack, which I subscribed to. Um you haven't written anything yet. Are you gonna be are will we see you writing more? Is this something you're uh interested in?
SPEAKER_00:Uh dude, I have I have a lot of things written. I've just never put them out there.
SPEAKER_01:Like okay.
SPEAKER_00:I'm glad like I have I have a bunch of things in drafts because like this whole entire I don't know the whole entire scenario, the whole entire all of this, like it's been wild to like see other people write about it. And I'm like, I don't know, it's interesting. Um, because nobody's really written it the way that I would or has really ever said it in my words, besides my you know, my race report, which was you know got me some flack. Um, yeah, I have I've got quite a few different things already written up. I'm just kind of trying to like, you know, deciding on when I want to dive back into the social media world. Like I haven't really been posting much. I've kind of been staying away from all of that just because you know wanted a little time to have things cool down. Um but I'll probably start releasing some things here pretty soon.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I feel like it's a deeply personal thing, like your first person perspective. Um not easy what you went through, obviously, and there's no need to go into it, but like have you considered maybe instead saving it for like a book at some point in time, dude? Just because like you are kind of one of one when it comes to these situations. So maybe a book would be like a a better idea in that sense, or or or compiling your stuff into writing a book. I feel like that would be interesting, and I think that would catch uh catch a lot of readers' attention.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I've actually had that thought too. Yeah, because like I I every single time I go to write about one little aspect of all of this, I just like start going and then it just turns into pages. And I'm like, ah shit. Like this is like I think uh uh uh Spencer, Spencer Harkins over at Raid, he asked me to write something about the grand. And like I started, he's he's like, yeah, just gonna be like five paragraphs about uh like five paragraphs about like the why behind it and like the day of. And like I just started writing, and then all of a sudden I have like pages and pages. I'm like, dude, I can't, like I can't write just like five paragraphs about this. Like it's impossible. Like there's I don't know, there's so much like backstory, there's so much like you know, there's such a lead up to it all, the you know, the summer of the day of, the you know, fallout and all of it. Like there's like it's just too much to write about in one setting. So definitely thought about a book, but like I don't know if anybody would read it. Like, I don't know, I'm pretty illiterate, so it's like you get a question, too.
SPEAKER_01:People would read it. I think that would be I mean, in my honest to God opinion, it is as interesting as something Krack Hour would write. And the reason I say that is because it is truly one of one when it comes to stories. Like, and I don't think, I mean, obviously I have a different look into it because like I know you, but I think the average listener, the average person that you come across, the average person you interact with has no idea. Like, even dude, something as small as like what goes even in like I don't think, and it makes me so frustrated because like I don't even think people understand remotely like the amount of work that goes into even trying to set that record. And then, like, that's that's half the book right there. And then obviously the fallout and what happens after it, that's a huge component. That's the other half or part two. Um, but I think so much can be said too about trying to get yourself ready to do something like this and preparing the body and the training and and all the technical components that go into it. Um, yeah, dude, I are you kidding me? I think that like, and uh if there's any person listening to this that would be uh interested, or maybe there's anybody that knows any publishing houses that would reach out to you. Yeah, I think you should seriously consider uh potentially putting pen to paper for that. And dude, you have a ghostwriter clean up your grammar. Who gives a shit? Like, you know, don't worry about that part about that part later.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I've thought about it. I've definitely thought about it. I think it could, I don't know, probably will happen at some point. I mean, you know, I did, you know, little yeah, it'll, it'll, it'll happen. It's just a matter of when, you know. Um, but then it's also like that brings me back to the substack of like, man, like should I even like release all, like, you know, put even my words on the internet and like say anything, or should I just compile it all into one, you know, one book and then just have that be out? So I don't know. I it's like, dude, one of the like one of the things like you know, because it is uh, you know, it's like we said, everything's fucking political these days. And like obviously this is political because like you don't get pardoned by the president and then have it not be. Um but like like and obviously, like, yeah, obviously I'm extremely grateful to have been pardoned. That's crazy. Like, who who can say that and it's a very rare thing? But at the end of the day, dude, if I got pardoned by Obama, I'd be freaking stoked. If I got pardoned by Biden, I'd be stoked. I got pardoned by Trump. I am freaking stoked. Like, it doesn't matter. Like the fact if you get a if you get a presidential pardon from any of them, it's like that's a I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Like usually I'm on my way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's like in the like what do you I don't know. Like I felt I felt bad for that kid, uh Hunter Hess, who said something, he's one of the uh Olympians. I don't know if he's a snowboarder, or I don't really look super into it, but he made some comments about you know saying, like, oh, like I don't know, like like somebody asked him a question, like, oh, are you like how do you feel about representing the USA in the Olympics? Uh and he essentially said, like, oh, well, you know, I don't know, I don't, I don't agree with everything going on there right now. And you know, he essentially made it a political answer. And then you got Trump freaking tweeting out, like calling him a loser and stuff. And I was like, oh, come on, man. Like it's like that sucks. And it's like he's just a kid, you know. Like, I don't know, I I don't know how old he is. He's probably in his mid to early 20s. And like, do you know, like when you're on the world stage like that? Like, yeah, maybe like I do understand the argument of like, yeah, don't air out your dirty laundry to the world of how you feel about internal politics within the United States and you know, be happy and grateful to be there and compete for your country. Um so like I don't know, like it's like, do you I feel bad for the kid, but then at the same time, like you know, he spoke out against it and he's you know, people are rallying behind him, whatever. I don't know. I don't know, dude. It's a weird world. Like it's so hard to when you get to that level of like like politics, notoriety, anything you say or do can be like magnified to the entire world. Yeah, like for me, it just makes me want to shut up and just be like, fuck all of this. Like, I don't want to be part of that. Like, I just want to go run, dude. So I mean, yeah, it's I don't even I don't even know where I'm going with that, but it's just so weird, you know?
SPEAKER_01:It's a weird position to be in, too. I I don't know. I think that you're well, it's weird too, dude, for you specifically, because like now you're you're finally able to like. Work on yourself, lay low, do your thing. But when I mean I guess when the documentary comes out, like your name is gonna be out there again. And it's gonna be like, do you how do you prepare yourself for that time? Because it's all gonna come back up again. You're gonna have to deal with this whole thing again. And it's like I understand 100%, like just wanting to put it behind you and just like focus on, you know, dude, you're a runner, you're an athlete. Like that's that's what you're good at. Like that's your thing. Like you don't have politics. Who wants to be involved with that shit, you know? Um, yeah, I I totally agree. It's it's a weird place to be in. Um but yeah, I don't know. It's uh it's a tricky position.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, it's like no matter, yeah, 50% of people are gonna hate you. They'll have they'll have no idea what the actual story is, but then they'll see like they'll see Trump next to your name, or they'll see, you know, Biden or Obama next to your name, and then automatically they have a preconceived notion, and then they, you know, they form an opinion based off of that, you know. So like that's that's the unfortunate reality. You know, it's like yeah, yeah, but whatever. What are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm still waiting for you to go on Rogan to tell the story. I can't wait. It's gotta happen.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, we'll see, yeah. Thank you. And anytime I've tried to like I feel like everybody's kind of like heard a little bits and pieces and like kind of know like a little bit about it. And personally, I am at the point where I'm like, people are probably fucking sick about hearing about this. So it's like like I try to keep it, like not really talk about it too much. Like I've you know, I turned I turned down I don't know how many podcasts in November and December. I was like, I just don't really want to like I talked to a couple people, like I did one with Finn on single track, and then we didn't release it because I was like, I was like, hey Finn, I don't want to release that. I was like, I don't think I was like, I don't know. Uh yeah, but I mean it's just yeah, we'll see when it when it all comes back up again, uh when we release the documentary. Um obviously I think I'll be way better suited for the you know the hate and all of the other crap around it. Like because I've already dealt, I've already dealt with it. Like the amount of like hate messages I've got and like people who say the craziest shit on the internet is just like, I don't know, you like dude, I freaking lost my sponsor because of this, you know? Like I lost North Face because of this whole thing. Uh which is, you know, that's fine. That's I get it. Like something that that's that is that overtly political is not necessarily the best press for a company. And like as athletes, we're marketers, we're not like if you think you're getting sponsored because you're fast, it's you're getting sponsored because they want to sell shoes, you know. Like it's if you're fast, yes, you are, but they want to sell shoes. At the end of the day, they don't really give a shit about you as a person. They like they'll they'll fire you and say, We love you, you're such a great person. However, you know, because of this and this, it didn't work. It's like, yeah, it's all it's all marketing and money, you know, it's all bullshit at the end of the day. It's business, but uh it's business, dude. Like, and that's fine. Like, I have no, you know, no hard feelings about that. Um, I get it. Um, but yeah, I don't even know. It's it's a weird world.
SPEAKER_01:Well, dude, I'm looking forward to the return of Michelino. Uh I've got this little, you know, got time to work on yourself, and you'll be back, dude. It's gonna be fun to follow along, and uh it's uh yeah, the summer's gonna be a good one for you. I could feel it already. Plus, based off of conversations we've had, I'm I'm stoked.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm all I am equally stoked. I would love to uh I'd love to go out to Europe and actually, you know, put one together and go kick some ass out of UTMB. So that's the goal.
SPEAKER_01:I want to get in your ear too at some point in time. I want you to go do ski sky race day maths in again when you can when you can pull that off. And because I know it's early season, but like one of these years, that is such a sick race, dude. I think I might try to do it next year. That is a sick race. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to do some of the skyroder stuff. Like they're it's yeah, it's legit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's just it's it's a tough, it's a tough time of year to train for. You know, I think it's what first week of May? Like that's that's that's tough to be in like that type of shape to be able to compete in Europe at one of the most you know competitive sky races, but that's a badass one. You should do that. I highly, highly recommend.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm gonna try and pull it off one of these years. I don't know. We'll see. We shall see. Yeah, dude. Europe's where it's at, man. I don't know. I got so many other things to figure out.
SPEAKER_00:Um dude, it's it's hard. You gotta start planning. Like, dude, you gotta plan years in advance, I feel like. Like, especially if you're trying to do the UTMB circuit or any of those races, it's like if you're not thinking two, three years ahead, I don't know. Like everything just happens so quick. You know, you gotta you gotta really dial it in.
SPEAKER_01:It's true. Are you excited with uh where the sport's headed? Are you are you happy with it now?
SPEAKER_00:Um, dude, not really. No, I feel like the sport's headed in a super lame direction, to be honest. Like I said earlier, it's really it seems like it's honestly like it's not about how fast you are, it's about how fast you tell people you are. Like that's the world we live in. It's also marketing based and it's also, you know, fucking flashy colors and flashy shit. It's like, I don't know. I'm more of the I'm more on the Carl Melzer side of things than anything. I feel like I'm more of an old grouch. Um, and kind of just think people should like, I don't know, just go run, baby. Like, just go run. You know? Like all the all the which is funny, like I don't know, all the media, all the media around running and like all the freaking selfie sticks at the starts of races and all the you know cameras everywhere. Like, yes, it is inherently good for the sport. Like it's in good it's good for the professional athletes, maybe it's good for the companies selling shoes. Is it good for the average runner? Is it good for the average person in the sport? I don't know, maybe. I mean, maybe you can make the argument that they have you know people to look up to, stories to emulate, and you know, desire to the desire to be like that person. Like, yeah, that's a that's a good thing. It can, you know, instill some type of uh, you know, hope in people, I guess. And you know, but uh it's also like I don't know, I feel like the realness of it all and like the I don't know, the grit and I don't know, it just seems I don't know, like maybe the soul of it has really just not it just doesn't feel like it's there. Um I don't know, man. Like maybe that's just me personally, like maybe I have changed so much that you know my roots of being a bit of a frickin' dirtbag and just you know sleeping at trailheads and waking up and eating whatever the hell I have and just going out and running for hours and hours at a time. Like, have I moved away from that a bit in the last couple years? Yeah, for sure. So maybe it's me, but at the same time, I feel like when you are watching what's happening at all these races and like seeing what's going on, like Western States, dude, like what a fucking shit show. Like looking at Forest Hill are like, dude, right? It's crazy. Like, how much is going on and like just it's a madhouse, man? And like it's all for like there's just cameras everywhere, like cameras in your face, cameras in your face. It's I don't know, man. I don't know. I think am I happy with where the sport's going, dude? And for some people, like guys like Jackson Cole, yeah, they give me hope.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes, that's the one, dude. Uh dude, if I have faith in anybody, it's you guys, man. Noah too. I I have faith in like Noah and a Jane gives me hope.
SPEAKER_00:Like, there's a lot of No, there's all the all the there's a lot of real ones.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Yes, there's a lot of real ones. I and then dude, it's and I just named a few of them off the top of my head, but like there's some real ones out there that I that I think will eventually be the biggest names in the sport and we'll take over and we'll have like and hopefully steer this thing in the right direction. Yeah, dude, the overcorporatization makes me a little sad. And I listen, I contribute to it too, man. I mean, like I have a podcast, I have a voice, I have have sponsors, and I I very much so take uh play a role in that. But at the same time, like I'm also not a dipshit. Like I see who's who and what's what, and uh, and I'm not afraid to say what is what. And uh yeah, dude, the overcorporatization, like a lot of those Hoke events, man, like you walk through and it's like everything's just trying to sell you shit. It's like what are we doing? You know, I just don't I don't like that. That's not that's not the soul of the sport, that's not what this was, that's not what this is about. Dude, it's the same thing with social media, man. Um, and I'll leave this. We can well, good, I don't want to take too much of your time. We'll can we can end it on this, but like I two weeks ago, and maybe three weeks ago now, I like made a deliberate like to try to like challenge myself to only be on Instagram for five minutes a day. And only what it was was just for stuff for the podcast. Because I just have drawn the line that like what's happening on Instagram is not reality. That's not what's happening in the real world. That's not that's not actually real. That's just what they, you know, that's what the people want you to see, you know. That's not what's actually happening in the real world. And that kind of drives me crazy. I see so much fakeness in everywhere you look in the every direction in the sport, and every and not just in sport, but in the world, you know, and it's like what's really the good stuff is is the interactions like you're having with your friends and your family and the people around you that really matter, right? The training that you're doing, the stuff that like intimately you connect with, all the other bullshit on social media, whether it's politics, whether it's uh you know, people trying to tell you they're fast or this, that, and the other, like none of it's real. It's all Fugazi. Um, so yeah, I've just kind of had like kind of a come to Jesus moment about this like semi-recently. And I dude, I feel better. Not being on Instagram anymore, I feel so much better. Like, even my vision's gotten better from not staring at my phone for so long. It's weird. Makes sense. That's my rant, dude.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, I think I think you're spot on. Everybody's trying to sell you something, you know? Yeah, like every everywhere you go, like literally like the targeted ads and everything on there, yeah. Like it's I mean, it's like dude, like go to like UTMB, right? Like go to UTMB week and just it's all just marketing, dude. Like it's everybody has activations, every single brand has an activation here, an activation there. Um, they're all paying all the influencers to fly across. Dude, you want to hear something crazy? Um never mind, I shouldn't say that. Um I'll shut my mouth now before I get too uh ahead of myself. I've had to, I've had to uh see that's the problem. Oh, good, good, good, good, good. Okay, I I I gotta, yeah. You gotta keep it, keep it pretty laid back, otherwise I can uh man, just imagine. Like, I think it would be fun. I think it would be fun to have like a three-hour conversation about like you know, Grant Teton politics, all this other shit. But like trying to like digest any of that in a short amount of time is so hard. Yeah, but then again, if I do that, if I have an if I have an open three hour conversation with anyone, it's like, oh god, I'll probably get clipped and like I'll be canceled and you know, I'll be canceled next week.
SPEAKER_01:Listen, dude, I've been saying this forever. If you do do it, you need to do it with like a true professional. Like I and I I I know Cam Haynes follows you, and like I don't know if you guys have connected or chatted, but like that would be a great conversation. And dude, it would be great to see you on Rogan too. Like, I think the world my where I get upset about this, and where I've always been a big supporter of yours, is like I don't I I feel like the people people that really know you and who know who you are and what you're actually about, like that story needs to be told. Not the you know, this idea of who people think you are. That always drove me crazy because that's what we saw from all the news things. It's this idea of this, they're trying to contrive this idea of this person that's not you. And it's like that's so fucked.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and no one, I mean, I'm just do you see that that last outside magazine article? Outside magazine is a fucking joke, dude. All they do is just rage bait, man. Like some dude was trying to connect me to like dark money in politics. Yeah, and like the his entire thing, he's like, just just because a law firm that helped me helped other people, and their their whole their whole, you know, Pacific Legal Foundation, their whole spiel is unconstitutional, uh, unconstitutional things that you know shouldn't be happening, right? Something that the government is doing to individuals that they don't agree with. That's that's it, really. And this guy wrote this whole entire auditor, he he reached out to us too. He reached out to myself and Alex asking for like, like, oh, like how, you know, trying to figure out like how this whole thing happened, how the pardon happened. And we literally spoon-fed him, the story. Like, literally spoon-fed it to him. Like, this is what happened from start to finish, which is literally, you know, how it was. Like the whole thing has to do with overcriminalization, right? It has to do with an executive order that passed back in uh April or May, I think last April, maybe even March. Anyways, I don't know when exactly the exact executive order passed. However, we brought that up in trial, and the prosecutor said that that did not apply to her. And from that is what set the motion for the presidential pardon is a is an attorney who is openly saying in a courtroom that an executive order that 100% pertains to this case, she doesn't have to listen to because it only applies to large corporations, not individuals, which is the complete opposite of what it actually applies to. She, yeah. Anyways, so we like spoon-fed it to this guy at Outside Magazine, and like he literally just like ran away with it and just made up some freaking crazy rage bait bullshit. It's like, dude, like we gave you the story on a freaking silver platter, and you just totally like took it uh the totally wrong way. So, like, yeah, dude, like seeing seeing and hearing other people try to put words and put their their thoughts, ideologies, opinions behind your actions and what you say do is like why are you doing like who are you to speak for me? Go fuck yourself. Like, you don't know me. Like, like that's not yeah. Well, it's like dude, people are people are stupid. It's all rage bait, dude. They're trying to sell you something, and they're trying to sell you either panic, fear, or you know, gear. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:The best the best the best example, so here, okay, so just one thing I'll leave it on. Seeing what they did to you.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's the third time you've said that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. Dude, I'm not in a rush, though. I'm not in a rush.
SPEAKER_00:We can we can chat.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the thing is is like seeing what they did to you and then knowing the truth makes me realize, like, oh my god, they must lie about everything, dude. Like, nothing's real, like everything is probably bullshit. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, dude, everything everything you see, like, um, like I love, I love um, I don't know. They yeah, they they literally just I swear to god, at this point, they're just trying to like piss people off. Like they just write the dumbest shit, dude. Like they put out the most ridiculous stuff, and but it works, you know? It gets people to click on their website, and that's what they want. At the end of the day, they just that's all they want, dude. They don't give a shit if they're putting out facts or something that can hurt somebody. They just want to put out whatever will get them the most engagement and clicks and likes.
SPEAKER_01:Is there any like legal protections for you? Like, there's there's those are clearly defamatory things, especially now that you are you are pardoned legally, like you have to have certain protections in place, right? Like if they were to write something like could you turn around and go after like outside magazine for writing completely nonsensical stuff about you?
SPEAKER_00:If it's I think it I don't the I don't know the exact like there has to be some type of what like uh like harmful intent behind it. And I don't bel well obviously there there is if you think about it. I think it's harmful intent. Um I don't think what they're doing in terms of yeah, but yeah, no, I can't I can't I can't sue anyone for any type of uh defamation or anything. Um but honestly at this point I don't even like I don't I just don't even want to.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so thank you so much. Honor and a privilege, buddy. I love having these conversations. Uh thank you for being a friend, a coach, and uh dude I'm so excited for what the future holds for you. It's uh it's gonna it's looking bright and good things from here.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, thanks for thanks for having me back. Hopefully, uh we'll we'll do it again soon, most likely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks so much for tuning in, guys. Uh I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Um definitely want to say I also appreciate Michelino for coming on the show for a conversation. Um best way you can support him is to give him a follow on Instagram. You can find him at Mikelino Censeri. And if you happen to be looking for coaching, you can also find him at Michelinosenseri.com. It's gonna be linked in the show notes, so pop on over to there if you guys are curious. Um, guys, if you have been enjoying what we've been putting out there to the world on the podcast, the best way you can support us is to give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you consume your podcast. For sure, hit that subscribe button on YouTube. That's the place so you'll be able to watch these uh podcasts in 4K video. And I'm pretty sure I'm gonna roll them out on Spotify and Apple because I just found out Apple was gonna be doing video pretty soon. So I'll be rolling them out uh in video form on uh both as well. Definitely want to say I apologize for the audio quality of this episode. I um pretty early in the beginning of the episode, I didn't realize my mic switched over. Uh thank you, Riverside, um, from my normal mic to my mic on my computer, and uh kind of screwed up my audio quality, and it was hard to kind of fix that in post-production. So definitely apologies there. Um yeah, guys, want to say thank you so much for all the um, you know, all the support. And uh yeah, lots of fun stuff coming down the pipeline. Finally, one of these days I'm gonna get to some announcements, which will be fun. Um, I can't believe we're coming up on two years of the podcast already in March. Um yeah, getting uh getting getting to the fun stuff. So lots of good stuff coming down the pipeline, and uh thanks so much for tuning in.
