#167 - Kalie McCrystal

A helmet for the whole race. Crumbly rock. Big exposure. And somehow a course record anyway. We’re joined by Kalie McCrystal fresh off her win at the Quattro Refugios Sky Race in Bariloche, Argentina, and she walks us through what made the day click, from setting the pace early to chasing a time goal when the gap opened up. If you love skyrunning, mountain running, and the gritty details that separate a good day from a great one, this conversation delivers.

We also zoom out to the bigger arc of Kalie's story: early running talent, a long injury that pushed her into other sports, and the moment Squamish trail running finally gave her a home for technical terrain. From local breakthroughs to Sky Masters in Spain, she explains how confidence is built one start line at a time, and why her best performances show up when the route turns into a scramble. Along the way we get into training specifics that actually match skyraces: ski touring as a base, steep vert “panic training,” downhill durability, and weighted hiking that sometimes looks like carrying a paraglider up a mountain.

Then we go where most athlete interviews don’t: sponsorships, contracts, NDAs, and pay gaps between Canada, the US, and Europe. With her background as a corporate lawyer, Callie shares how she evaluates brand deals, why she won’t trade her value for free shoes, and what athletes should think about when they negotiate. We wrap with what’s next, including more technical FKTs like the Armchair Traverse, Skyrunner stops in Europe and Peru, and the pull of iconic races like Kima.

If you enjoy the show, subscribe, share it with a mountain-running friend, and leave a five-star rating and review so more people can find it.

Follow Kalie on IG - @kalie_mcc

Follow James on IG - @jameslauriello

Follow the Steep Stuff Podcast on IG - @steepstuff_pod

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James Loriello. Today I got a treat for you guys. I am so excited to welcome Callie McChrystal to the show. Fresh off of her win in court record at the Four Refugio Sky Race, just a few weeks removed. Callie was kind enough to come on the show and talk all things about her background and skyrunning. We got deep into a whole slew of topics, including her background, where Callie uh at one point in time had been a corporate lawyer. And uh, you know, we talked about kind of taking the risk or taking the leap of leaving her corporate job to go uh to go kind of roll the dice on being a professional athlete, if you will. We also talked about her 2025 season, where she completed the armchair traverse FKT, got second at the Stranja Fiord, uh, Skyrace, and third at Mount Marathon, which extremely prestigious races. Uh, and then to chop the cherry off uh on the top of that, she got 12 foot worlds in the short trail. Um Callie is, in my opinion, one of the best skyrunners on planet Earth, and uh was kind of just kind of to come on the show and have a chat. So without further ado, hope you guys enjoy this one, Callie McChrystal. Ladies and gentlemen, all right, Callie McChrystal. Welcome to this Deep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Great, yeah. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, I'm so excited to uh to finally chat with you. It's crazy. Like you, I when I started doing some research into this episode, I you have such an impressive running resume that I was like, damn, like how did I not have you on the podcast before? So you've uh you've managed to fly under the radar, but up until today. Now we've now we've got you on and we're gonna ask you 10,000 questions. So super excited to have you on and uh finally have a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, thanks so much. I do kind of fly under the radar. I've heard that um a few times.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

So with your I mean, honestly, I'm not joking, and we'll get to this throughout the show. Like with your resume, like you should be one of the biggest names in the sport. Like it is, I I cannot believe some of the stuff that you've done. I'm like, wow, all right. So it's definitely stoked. You're just getting back from uh a big trip uh down south to South America to race, uh, where you won and took the course record at four refugios. I mean, I I I definitely got to get the the recap from you and hear how your trip went and just that experience overall.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, that was um that was not a part of the season plan until about a month ago to go down there. I had looked at the Skyrunner list of races, and this one stood out mostly because it required a helmet for the entire race, which automatically piques my interest. Um but it was so early in the season that I kind of wrote it off. It's you know, we almost have snow here in Canada, and I didn't think I could make it work, and then got a bit of an offer for a bit of travel funding to go down there, and the timing um worked really well, and I just kind of thought, all right, I've got three weeks, I can probably panic train enough to uh get fit enough to compete, at least. And um, I've always wanted to go down to Argentina and Patagonia, and really glad that I did because it was um, I would say the best race that I have run, both from a course and an organization perspective. Obviously, the result helps with that as well. Um, but it was a yeah, it was a great experience and a nice kickoff to the season um to give me a bit of confidence heading into everything else.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah. I mean, amazing, amazing performance, dominant as well, new new course course record. Dude, that course looked legit, like full on helmet. Uh, talk about that. Was it like, is that the first race? I don't know. I I couldn't like I poked around a little bit in some of your other races. I didn't see if you've done chema before. That's the only other race I know of where you have to wear a helmet the whole time. So, how was that as far as the the whole helmet situation?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Yeah, I um I'm doing chema this year, so we'll have that experience. But um, grinya is another one. It doesn't require helmets the entire time. Um, you know, classic Italy, they like helicopter in everybody's helmets halfway through the race and hand it to you as you walk by. Um, but that one had about 8k of helmets. Uh there's a couple other races that have cramp-ons required, so I'm no stranger to some of the you know mountaineering equipment being required. Um, I think I thought the helmet would be more annoying than it actually was throughout. It was totally fine, um, to be honest. And I went scrambling up in the mountains and just some like scrambling light soloing the next day, and the rock quality there is quite poor. Um, as the climbers would say, a lot of choss. So after doing that, I was actually like, okay, I really get why we were wearing helmets the whole time because the overhead risk was um pretty high and everything was doing was really steep uh and crumbly. So yeah, kind of a kind of a fun little add-on.

Ski Touring Build And Panic Training

SPEAKER_02 6:18

How how difficult difficult was it? I mean, you said you kind of like panic train to get yourself ready for this three or four weeks to a month to get yourself peaking for, I wouldn't even say peaking, but to get yourself in the right fitness level to perform at a race like this. How is it where you live in Squamish? Um, I I know sometimes there's a there's some snow up high, sometimes not. I know from what I've looked at in your experience, uh, there's a lot of skiing to do, obviously, not too far in Whistler. What has your build looked like so far in this off-season, kind of preparing for to get ready for this race?

Leading The Race And Chasing Time

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Um, my build in the off-season consisted of quite a bit of ski touring. So um my big days up until a month ago had been almost exclusively on skis, which is great in some ways and not great in other ways for running. And then when I decided to go to this race, panic training involved uh just getting a couple big vert days. So, yeah, there was snow at maybe 800 meters, but I just like stacked some steep climbs. We have so much amazing terrain in Squamish on um unsanctioned mountain bike trails and unsanctioned trials trails that are super steep, super technical. And that's sort of where I live in the trails in Squamish. It's it's not where a lot of people are running, but it's where I run. Um, and so I just had long runs doing a ton of tried to do some steep downhills to condition my quads a bit. Um, and then my sort of like secret secret weapon training is uh well, weighted hiking, but it just means carrying my paraglider uphills and um getting some extra uphill training that way. So between skiing, um running down mountain bike trails and paragliding, that was basically my build for quattro refugios.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Damn, I'm impressed. That's amazing. Uh we'll talk about I know I I almost pivoted into Whistler, and I feel like that's a whole nother conversation we'll get into, or not Whistler, I'm sorry, into uh squamish because that's a whole nother ask. Uh but I want to talk a little bit more about the race as far as how it played out for you. I felt like, and I wasn't there, obviously, from as someone following the race and understanding what's going on, trying to get the play by play, it felt very dominant. Would you say the same? Was it close at any point for you? At what point in time did you kind of maybe give me a little bit of a play by play? I think the audience would appreciate that and how you were able to, you know, get that win and how that unfolded for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, sure. Um, so going in, I definitely was going for the win. And I also had a bit of a time goal um in mind. I, you know, looking at this course versus some others that I've done, I thought I could probably go around 630. And um one of the Skyrunner uh media guys who had been there before said, there's no way women will go under seven hours. It's too technical. And so I really got that in my mind from the from the beginning that I um was going to go 630 to prove him wrong. Um, and I usually I do a decent amount of research into courses, like I had looked up the Strava segments for this route, and I had kind of taken the top times from those, added them together, approximated where I thought I would be, and I went out kind of at that pace. So I knew where I wanted to be when I hit the first refuge. Um, and when we started the race, Erin Tun, who she doesn't race a lot, but she has the Acongawa FKT and a lot of other um FKTs kind of in Colorado and South America. She was there and she went out fairly hard as well. And I kind of made the decision early on that I wanted to be the one setting the pace. And so I kind of let us out and didn't really look back. Like I just I wanted to be in my rhythm. I don't get the chance a lot to lead races and set it at the tempo that I want. Um, and so I think by the time we got to the first refuge, like 10K in, I was a couple minutes up, and then over the first pass, uh steep uphill, steep rocky uphill, steep scree descent, I put a decent amount more time into that lead. And from that point on, I was kind of not looking back. I knew I was like kind of hitting my time goals, and I was really focused on that. And it wasn't until, you know, like I could keep looking back over my shoulder and I was like, okay, I don't really see anybody. But then for me, it doesn't become like all right, foot off the gas. Like I can be just as motivated to hit a time goal and to pass men. And yeah, it wasn't until maybe two-thirds of the way into the race that I saw some of the media team from Skyrunner and was able to kind of say, like, where is everybody? And and at that point, they were just like, We don't know, but you're far. Just keep going. And like, we think you're in the top 10 overall. So, and so for me at that point, that's like where it's super fun, and you can just push yourself and not have to have the mental games going on of what do I need to do strategically to win this race. You can actually just like dial in your effort and play to your own strengths, and that's where I tend to get the most out of myself and my best performances. So it was um, it was great to have one of those races where I could really just do my best without worrying about where other people were.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I love that. It's interesting to me because leading a race is a funny thing. Some people get very anxious and they don't want to be in the lead. They'd rather sit back and and make their move later on in the race and kind of wait for things to play out. Other people get very comfortable in being, especially for a race like this. This is this is not a 5k, this is not a 10k, it's a completely different animal. So for you to be able to just kind of get your own rhythm, if you will, uh up on the up and downs and in in different sections of the mountain race itself, I feel like it almost plays to your strength because then you don't have to worry about other people. You can kind of just you can find your rhythm and just kind of jam, you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, I mean, I for these kind of like six-hour races, I know for me getting to the middle of the race feeling comfortable and feeling like I have more matches to burn is how I have the most success. But um, you know, I kind of chose pretty early on in my like trail running career that I was gonna be a small fish in a big pond and race like the most competitive races I could, which puts you in a situation where, you know, you might not really be able to stick to your own personal template for the race without getting dropped off the pack or you know, scrambled up with the men to a point where like you're just stuck in a conga line. Uh, and I think that's been something that I have struggled with, like just having the confidence to stick to my own strategy and not get caught up with like the Sara Alonsos and the Hillary Girardis that may just have a totally different strength and strategy. So when I do get these moments where I'm like, oh right, my strategy actually works. It's nice to go into those races then later in the season and uh kind of gives me the confidence to stick to my plan a bit more.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

I gotta ask you this because I know Erin and I know Erin quite well. She's been on the podcast, she's a friend, former teammate. I I know she races aggressive, and like I've I've watched her go out like aggressive. Um, did that kind of take you like how were you able? Um you kind of hit on this a little bit, but how were you able to take control of the race? Because I know um just did that kind of take you back for a second, like I wasn't expecting that, or kind of how did those dynamics kind of play out in the beginning, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah, I was a little bit surprised at how hard she took it out. Um, one of the we were up pretty close to the front of the men and ripping pretty fast. And the camera guy from Skyrunner, who's my friend Yulin, said, you know, what the heck are you doing? And I just said, Yulin, everybody knows that every race is run in the first 5k, and we just kept going. And um, I don't know, I think races are a place to have fun. And uh at that point, I was just like, great, this is you know, like we're gonna have a little battle here, and like, you know, we're fighting a little bit for who's gonna lead this race. And um I just kind of was having a good mental day and I was excited for it, and I just thought it's gonna be me. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do what I need to do to hit this single track first, and like I'm gonna set my zone two pace in the dark on these trails that I've never run before. And, you know, if she wants to make a move, then I'll deal with that when it comes.

Bariloche Culture And Racing Travel

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Okay. No, I like that. Interesting. I and I hope I I wanna, you know, I gotta message Erin. I gotta tell her I want to see her do more of these races because I'm such a fan of hers. And like I feel like she would crush it on the Skyrunner series. Like, it's just I don't know, it fits her her style very well, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Um I want to pivot a little bit. What was the feeling of elation at the at the finish line? This is a big win, like this is a big deal. Um, how did how did it feel to you to get that big win, especially so early in the season? And for a lot of people, like that's how I, you know, I we have a lot of mutual friends apparently, but that's how I specifically found out about you was through this, which I thought was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yeah, um, I was really happy to win. I was probably just as happy to have put together a good race start to finish. I think anybody that like races a lot, you know, you have like good races and bad races, but especially on the longer ones, I find like it can be rare to put together a race where you're like, okay, I didn't have any major lows, I didn't have any major gut issues, like I felt good mentally, I felt good physically, like I wasn't, you know, I didn't have crazy cramps or anything. And it's just so nice when you hit the finish line on one of those races and you just think like, okay, yes, it came together and it can come together again. And so I knew that it, you know, it would be a good thing for my running career to break a tape. Um, I was more stoked, honestly. Well, more stoked is maybe an exaggeration, but I was pretty excited to be kind of fifth overall and to hit that time goal. Um, but yeah, it's a for someone that, you know, three years ago was not really in the scene at all and was looking at these races, being like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if I could just like be in the series and race with these amazing women to, you know, getting one of those shirts and breaking the tape? It did feel like a pretty full circle moment. And um, people at home, people in Squamersh were really stoked for me, and that felt really special that everybody was sort of behind me and and saw that the journey had led me there.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I love that. Did you did you get to dish it back to the to the skyrunner guy who told you women can't run under seven hours or something like that? Because I felt like that was a very rude comment to make.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

No, it wasn't. I don't think it was rude. I think he was just trying to make sure that I had enough food.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Okay. All right. Well, in that case, I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

Yeah, you'll say I say the same thing in the they do like a post-race interview that they post on the Skyrunner channel. And um, I said something to the same effect in that interview of like, I just really wanted to prove him wrong and like go under the record. So yeah, Eulin and I are are buddies, and um I didn't take it personally at all, but I'll always take the opportunity to uh show that women can get closer to men than most people think.

SPEAKER_02 19:24

Absolutely. Top five, dude. That's crazy. I love that. Um, what'd you think of like the the area, like the culture, the just everything? Like it seems like such a cool uh just environment to play around in.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Yeah, Bariloche was amazing, actually. There's not many places in the world that I would consider um living, and Bariloche was one of them now. Um the people were great, super friendly. It has so many outdoor activities, both winter and summer. Uh that Quattro Refugio's route, actually, you can ski tour it as well. So that's pretty sweet, this like hut-to-hut system. Um down there in Argentina, the food was good. Uh, you've got like the water right there. So it kind of reminded me a little bit of Canada. Um and yeah, definitely. I know lots of people went to like the UTMB Bariloche and I think it was November as well and loved it. Um, so totally would recommend the area for you know sightseeing running or for racing. Um, and the community that organizes it is also really great. Like it was a very well-organized and well supported race.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

I love that. That's cool. Yeah, I mean, I hope more people get to go experience, you know, races like that. Because Bariloche, I mean, up until it might have been the UTMB race, I I really hadn't heard of it. I mean, I didn't really know much about the South American, you know, running scene in general. And the more of these races that pop up, especially from the Skyrunner series, I'm just like, wow, like there's so many different cultures and experiences and just things to go check out, uh, you know, outside of our normal bubble of racing, which is usually what, the mountain west or Europe, more or less. And uh, you know, just so much, it's a big world out there, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, I think um a big reason that like I travel a lot for racing is because I think it gives you this interesting view into the culture of a place. Like if you go and race in Switzerland, that's a very different experience than racing in Italy, is a very different experience than racing in Japan or Argentina. And it gives you this insight into these little mountain communities and just sort of how society functions in a little microcosm that I think is really cool. Um yeah, so that that's kind of like I think a good reason to travel generally in these places, but Argentina was a good one for sure.

Early Sports And A Long Injury

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely. It's high on my list. Um, all right. I want to change gears. Oh, I want to go back to the beginning of your story. Like, I'm so curious, like, how you found this like sky running situation, like what your background in sport is. So I'm gonna give you the mic to just like tell me your story. I'm I'm so interested, like start to finish, to hear from how you got to where you're at now.

Breakout Results And Sky Masters Confidence

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, it's been um a unique journey, I would say, compared to a lot of people. Um, I grew up like as an athlete for sure. I was a runner when I was younger, and then um you know, like I ran kind of provincial level, which would be like state level in the states, um, into like the end of what you guys would have as middle school. And then I had this injury that went on for a really long time. It ended ended up being like an undiagnosed stress fracture in my tibial plateau. And I went from like surgeon to surgeon, and everybody was like, You need to stop running. This is you can't have this as your sport, you're gonna do serious damage, and you can't do this anymore. And I played soccer, and I my primary sport um was actually swimming. So I swam for a number of years, always was really active, tried to start back running a few times and just couldn't beat this like injury that nobody really knew what it was at the time. Eventually in university, like I was just kind of pretty normal, like played rec sports, like was lifeguarding a lot, working a lot. Um and eventually I found that found some like treatments that worked. I had given it enough time and was able to start getting back to running. Um and even then it was just kind of a hobby, like I did some triathlons, some half marathons, a couple marathons. Pretty like decent but average, I would say. Um and then moved to Squamish in 2019, started trail running a bit more, found that it was way easier on my body. I could do a lot more of it without having injuries crop up. Um and then late in 2021, so post-COVID, a couple local races came back, and I had been, you know, running and like taking a few segments around and was like, oh my god, finally I can like get into this community and just like just experience it. I was so starved for connection from COVID. Um, so those were two of Gary Robin's races, the Wham at the time 13K and Squamish 50. And I came second in, I like volunteered from like 5 to 9 a.m. in the morning and then like hopped into the 13k. And Janelle Hazlett was racing, who I was like at the time kind of fangirling over. Um, and I ended up uh coming second in that race and um was like and just barely like outkicked Janelle at the finish and was like, okay, this went better than expected. That was fun. Um, and then hopped into the Squamish 50, which that year was at the end of October, and um it was at the end of October, it was like it was our atmospheric river year, so there were crazy rains and it was really cold. Um, and I ended up I was through halfway in second or third, and then got completely hypothermic and got like pulled off the course uh about 40k. So but sorry, I lost it. Despite that, I was like, yeah, sorry. Um despite that, I was like, okay, I seem to have something here. Um and kind of immediately after that, I went through like a big breakup and had a chance to re-evaluate my life goals a little bit and was like, you know what, I'm gonna like really try running. I'm gonna get a coach, and I just want to like see what I can do within this scene. Um, and so kind of that takes us to the beginning of 2022, and got a coach, a great coach here in Squamish, Scott McGuire, and set my sights on I was gonna do Minotaur and I wanted to do Wham, which is the Whistler Alpine Meadows 50K. And just had like an amazing year um running and learning about the trail world and building confidence in myself and really starting to understand that I did have some talent, especially on the technical terrain that was just sort of like innate, you know. Like I was just we have this like joke at home. There's kind of groups of runners, there's like team track and team scramble. Team scramble is like, you know, the technical people that are always just like off doing 45-minute kilometers on some ridge, and then you have team track that actually can run and is clocking miles. Um, and I was always kind of team scramble, and uh so I headed into Minotaur, and there was a bunch of international athletes that had um come to that race, Rhea Coble and Georgia Tinley, and um Lindsay Webster was there and some others. And I ended up coming fourth and was just like wow, didn't really see that coming. Um, but was pretty pretty stoked on the whole experience and running with those women was really inspiring for me. Um, and then I sort of followed that up with Wham, its last ever installment, um, which is where I met some of the US athletes. That was the first time I met like Ryan Becker for the first time and Max King and a bunch of others, and I ended up um so I won that and got the course record on it, and that was still probably one of my best performances to date, I would say. Uh, but between those two, for me, that was like complete proof of concept. And at that time, Minotaur, all you had to do to qualify for Sky Masters, which is like the um skyrunning final for the year, is to come top 10 at one race. And then you got invited to the final, and you didn't get your travel paid for, but they put you up in a hotel for three days. And you know, at the time I was working full-time as a corporate lawyer and doing this very much as a hobby, but I just was like, well, screw it, and went to went to Spain, had to like postpone my trip because I got COVID two weeks before, and um went anyways and didn't think I had any business being there, but ended up um coming in sixth. And at that point, I was like, wow, okay, maybe I do sort of belong here. Like I can actually race with these people. Um, and then shortly after that, um, I was sitting on a ferry with a friend, and he posed a question to me that probably kind of changed the course of my life, which was um, what would you do if you lost your job tomorrow and you couldn't go back to work for a year, but you were financially stable enough to kind of do what you wanted to do. What would you do? And I said, I'd go race in Europe. And he said, Well, is it really the money that's stopping you? Um amazing question.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

And so, sorry, amazing question, by the way.

The Question That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Amazing question. I ask it to people all the time now because I think it's like it's so revealing of you know, yes, of course, there's real obligations and work is important, and not everybody has the financial means or like the life means to be able to just walk away from what they're doing for an extended period. But if you do, and you know, and you actually can afford that, man, is it like worth it? Um, and so yeah, I kind of went to my law firm, and by that time I knew that I had made the world's team in uh 2023, and I just said, like, look, I'm gonna go do this. I need six months and I will come back, but I need six months unpaid. And if you say no, I totally understand, but I'll quit. And they were nice enough to say, okay. I love it. Very reluctantly to say okay to that request. Um, and so yeah, 2023 off I went and I spent six months in Europe and raced Golden Trail and Skyrunner and had some good results, race worlds for the first time. Um, and from then on, you know, it's hard to make it just like a one season thing. And I sort of gave myself three years at that point and said, okay, let's prioritize this. This is a bit of a you only live once adventure, and let's just see what happens for three years and then we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

That is crazy. All right, so I have so many follow-up questions to this. The first one is is I alright, so I just get so stoked on this because I love seeing people follow their dreams and going after big things. Like even when they're I mean, you had the proverbial golden handcuff. You're in a corporate loyal law job. That's not an easy thing to leave. That takes some stones to be able to say, well, you know what, I like this better. I'm gonna go, and life is short, and I'm gonna go, I have some talent with this, and I'm gonna go pursue this. What did they say to you at work? I mean, yes, you said they eventually they said, okay, go for it, but they must have looked at you like you had two heads because most people that are I mean, I I get this because I work in corporate finance. If I was to go do that, people would be like, Wow, like you're not a like a a I guess a career-driven person, or this or it's very easy for someone to kind of put that uh label on you, if you will. And that must be very hard to do, or must have been very hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah, I had already sort of blown up my law career a little bit. I had um left the firm and gone in-house a couple years earlier, and then ended up going back to uh a big corporate law firm. Um, so I had already sort of, you know, started to build up this reputation of maybe not fitting the mold exactly. And luckily I was also good at my job and had some specialized expertise um and some social capital. So, you know, I think people were not totally shocked. Um, but I mean, what ended up kind of happening is like, yes, I did go back after that time, but uh law firms like in corporate finance are not known for being like the most accepting of alternative career paths. And they, you know, that was kind of a one-time thing. Like I got some time off the next summer to go again, but only a few weeks, and and eventually just kind of had to leave that position. And um yeah, that's a risk I was willing willing to run, I guess. Like I really think um office jobs will always be there for you if you have a skill. Like maybe I couldn't go back to that exact law firm, but I have a skill and I had some financial security built up, and I don't think 80-year-old me would look back and say, wow, you really should have stayed in that office job instead of traveling around the world figuring out exactly how fast you can run up a mountain.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

That's that's the tagline for this episode. I I I love that. And you know, it's it's just so sad to me because like I I come across, I have a lot of friends, and as you do as well, probably, that like are living that life of wishing they would have gone and done the things that like you just went and gone to do. And it it's like it's gotta be a very freeing, less stressful life um to do that. I don't know. I I think that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

I don't know if it's less I I don't think it's less stressful to be honest. Like, um, yeah, I was down in the city meeting with uh one of my old mentors from the law firm today, actually. And when I think back to that life, like it was much more simple. Like I knew what I was doing, I knew how it was going to progress and how to get ahead. And like I could just see my life ahead of me. It was easy to predict. Was it more fulfilling? No, um, definitely not, but it's all life is stressful in different ways. And I get to have some really amazing experiences in doing what I'm doing, but my career path is like far from certain. And there's financial instability and injury risk and all those other things. So um, yeah, I don't know, life is scary and hard no matter what you do, but you get to kind of pick what makes it scary and hard.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

It's true. No matter which way you spit it, no matter what you pursue, there's always there's always risk there. But like, I don't know, I just had a really good conversation with Alex King who runs Teric Nota, the startup brand. We were talking about risk. And I think it's such an important thing that like just bet on yourself on something in life. Because if you don't, like you're gonna get to the end, and I feel like you're gonna be so disappointed if you don't just find at least something. Bet on yourself, you know. And uh yeah, I don't know. That's the reason I asked this is because I'm kind of yeah, I'm at that point in my life where I think about this stuff as well, and it's like you know, golden handcuff or podcast or being an athlete or whatnot. And it's you know, you kind of balance those things in what ways more. And at the end of the day, it's all about spending the time that's the most fulfilling for yourself and spending it with the people that are gonna, you know, fill your cup, proverbially.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

So totally. It's I mean, it is kind of a scary place to be when you're at a standing at a crossroads and you're never going to know what was on the other side of that crossroads, right? Like, I don't know what would have happened if I had continued to be a lawyer. I don't know um, you know, what will happen in the future if I decide not to keep running or to keep running or move to Europe or stay in Canada or whatever. Like, yeah, it's just uh the decisions are never easy, but you just like pick a road and start running, I guess.

2025 Highlights And Mount Marathon Chaos

SPEAKER_02 39:12

Yeah, that's true. And options are good. It's always good to have options, right? Um, so let's pivot a little bit, and I want to talk a little bit about 2025, which was a another just like banger of a season for you. Like, I mean, I'm just gonna summarize some of the things. I mean, you've got a long list, and I'll I'll uh and uh in the show notes I'll link your Instagram so folks can give you a follow and uh learn more about your season, but 12th at Worlds and the Short Trail, which was crazy. It was your second time at Worlds, uh, second at Stronda Fjord, which is a super technical race. I do want to talk to you about the Arm Church reverse FKT, and I want to talk to you about Mount Marathon as well. Um, yo, did you have a great time in Mount Marathon? That race is bananas, it looks so much fun.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Mount Marathon was awesome. Yeah. What a man, that race is just like fun. It's totally different from any race I've run.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Your uh fellow Squamish uh amigo over there, Jesse McCaulay, has always had success at Mount Marathon. So I feel like that, you know, it's a the you guys, squamish folks just know how to train for that race. You guys kind of have that dialed, which is is pretty neat.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, Jesse and I went together as well as his partner Kat. Um, I spent yeah, the whole time there, like sharing a bed with his mom, Lynn. So shout out to Lynn.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Shout out to Lynn.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Um, but he totally showed me the ropes and we like checked out the course together and scoped out the roots and the um and oh yeah, the cliffs. As most people know in Mount Marathon, there's like a variety of routes that you can take to get up to the climb. And I just like loved the strategy of all that, the fact that you just like go out on a pack and then everybody just kind of splinters off. I thought that's such a fun and unique element, and people are you know taking off left and right and have their the locals have their own like little secret roots, and I just thought it made it such a fun event and um yeah, really memorable for me, and I was super happy to be able to get on the podium there and just to have just to have fun with it. Like at one point in the race, I had some like maple leaves on my cheeks, and I was going up the climb, and some guy was like, um, oh, she's got like tears on her face, like tears tattooed on her face, and I was like, Fair maple leaves, and he was like, Why are you talking?

SPEAKER_00 41:52

You're not trowing hard enough, and I was like, Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

It's just like a fun race. Like people are just drinking in the morning on the mountain and blasting music, and um it's really unique. So it was a great experience.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

I think it shows so much range for an athlete like you that you can you could produce at this high level at a seven-hour, six and a half, five hour race, but you can also go and hammer a less than an hour race and uh still have success on both ends. So I think that shows a lot of range for you as an athlete too, which is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yeah, as long as the slopes are like 40% grade, I'm pretty good.

Armchair Traverse FKT On Technical Terrain

SPEAKER_02 42:34

It's funny you say that. I've I we have the Manitou incline in our in my backyard, and I go do the incline all the time, and it's like a 40, 45% grade in some sections. And I just laugh because I'm like, damn, I've gotten so much more efficient at hiking, like power hiking. But I'm my uphill running like is at like 15%, for instance, like suffers so much because it's just a different like group of muscle systems. So I find that interesting. I don't know. I'm like a nerd about that stuff. Um let's talk Armchair Traverse FKT. I I want to hear more about this. Um, because I I've seen this like I've seen you tagged on a few things on Instagram on this. I've seen it like circulating around the internet. Um, talk about this Armchair Traverse.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Yeah, sure. So um Armchur Traverse is up near Whistler. Um it's fairly technical. Like it starts off with this big climb, uh, just up through the trails, up to this beautiful lake. And then from there, once you get up to the lake, you kind of head straight up to this ridge. And there's a technical ridge that, like a cirque that goes all the way around this lake, and then you have to come back down to the lake and go back down. So the Arm Trail Traverse is that whole thing from the bottom of the first climb all the way around the lake and back down, and it's like 25k. Uh, so what is that like 15 miles? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

And um yeah, like 2400 meters of vert. So that's like 7,500 feet, I guess. Um, but the kind of you know, the big section is this middle section, which is a scramble, a bunch of class four stuff. It's pretty exposed. You're you've got like a glacier on one side and um the ridge on the other. And I had done this a couple times before, and it's it's kind of it's my favorite route in the mountains in BC. It combines a lot of things I like. It's absolutely beautiful. Um and I had, yeah, I had I already had the FKT on this route, but it was like I had just like been out with friends, and I knew that I could lower it by a good amount. And at the time, the overall all FKT on that was 423 from the men's, and one of my goals for last year was I wanted to take the overall FKT on armchair because I I kind of have learned at this point the more technical the terrain, the better I do. I have like quite a high risk tolerance. I'm a decent climber, scrambler. Um and I just seem to move quite well through that stuff. So as I've gone through my trail running career, I've learned that like the Sierra Znales are really not suited to my skill set, and the Quattro Refugios really are. Um so I was going out for this, yeah, I was going out for this FKT. It was kind of a season goal, and there's a really short period of time when conditions are good on it. Um and so I mean, fortunately but unfortunately, my friend Brendan Morton, uh who's also an amazing runner, went out and took the men's FKT and shaved like 35 minutes off of it a couple weeks before I ran it, which made the overall more difficult to obtain. Um but I yeah, I just kind of went out one day, slept in my friend's garage in Pemberton the night before, and um showed up really excited to just put down a time on this route. Um went really well. Um the scramble portion, which is about 45 minutes long. I ended up taking the overall on that section. And then I think what most people are impressed about on this route is my downhill, which is always is which is always a strength, but um it was just a really good day out, and I kind of that goal of doing that FKT sort of set me up for uh this year a little bit. Um there's a few other FKTs that I'm gonna try to go for, all of them within this more technical um mountainous terrain. And I think that there's just real potential to get the women's FKTs on some of these routes a lot closer to the men's. Um, you know, a la terra daur on the super long routes a little bit. Yes, yeah, and show that like, you know, like when fitness is like only one component, actually women can do pretty dang well uh in comparison. So yeah, that's kind of like the beginning of a maybe a series of FKTs to come.

2026 Plans Including Kima And Peru

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Oh, this is a great segue. So where can we you could talk about racing and FKTs? What are we gonna see you at in 2026?

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Uh yeah, so I will be at some of the Skyrunner races. Um, I'm gonna head out to Europe for a few weeks in May and run um Matsusin, which is always a very competitive uh Skyrunner race. And then um I'll be I got an FKT or two to chase at the beginning of the summer around home. Um going to Peru for another Skyrunner race in June. And then um, yeah, I have a pretty big FKT goal in Europe that I'm not willing to share yet.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

No, it's fine. It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Um we'll see if that pans out. That'll be kind of August, and then I'll do Kima. And uh then we'll then we'll kind of see in in September where things have lined up. Um the Skyrunner final is always really late in the season in like November. So we'll see how my season has stacked up and how things look from there. But um, yeah, I'm looking I'm looking forward to it this year. I think it'll be a nice mix.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I am so excited to see you at Kema. Are you stoked for that race? I mean, that's like that's like a that's a buck of loss race for me. Uh, one of the like I know it's every other year, so it's always hard to like kind of plan things ahead of time. But yeah, we'll talk about your stoke level for that race.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Yeah, I mean, um, I think everybody is running Kema this year from the sounds of it. Like I haven't seen like an official start list. I don't think anybody's registered yet, but um, I have I've saw Emily Forsberg is running it. Um, Elise Ponsett is running it. I think Hillary might be running it again. So it's gonna be a hard race to do well at. Um there's actually quite a bit of flat at Kima, the beginning and the end. Um, but it's such an iconic race. And my experience with doing iconic races thus far is that they are all iconic for a reason and a lot of fun. So I'm just excited to experience it and to get out there and play on the, you know, the chains and the limestone. It's a really unique environment and there's always lots of fans, which makes it a lot of fun. So it's always fun when you know you're lining up against like some of the best women in the sport. It's just kind of a pinch me moment.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's gonna be, like I said, I've I've not looked at the Star list yet, but that's crazy to think that everybody's gonna be there and it's gonna be uh a big, big dance this year, which would be super fun.

Why Squamish Makes Mountain Runners

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Um, I kind of, you know, how do you like like living in Squamosh? This is a question I actually had for you for the beginning of the show, and I just didn't get a chance to ask you it. But yeah, how do you like like living and training out of squamosh? Just because I feel like everybody that's like the scene in the Pacific North slash like Canadian running scene. Um yeah, I'll let you take it away from there.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Yeah, I mean, Squamosh is great. Squamish as a training ground is um great. I mean, if you're a roadrun, probably don't come here. Our track is gravel um and usually covered in puddles or snow. Uh, we do not have good road running. Um, but if you are a mountain runner, uh, it has some of the best terrain in the world and some of the best alpine terrain in the summer. I mean, you can climb peaks as much as you can here as you can in Canmore during our alpine season. We have amazing mountain bike trails to run on, everything from you know, smooth and roly to extremely like janky, loamy, unsanctioned trails that just crisscross our mountains and go up and down and everywhere. Um I think there's it's a unique scene because you have this crossover of a bunch of sports, right? Like you have the climbers that come here, you have the mountain bikers that come here, you have the runners that are here, schemo athletes, you have all these different groups. And occasionally you'll get pretty cool crossovers. Um, my a friend of mine puts on this race once a month at the end of every month, called the um it's kind of short tagged as the VK, but it's at seven o'clock at night. He puts together the most convoluted routes that he can think of. They drop a week before the event, and it attracts this like unique group. You get some of the mountain bikers that come out, you get some climbers, you get some like very high-level runners, and you know, you take off from some undisclosed location, and everybody will get lost. Um, there's like a Halloween event where they'll like burn an effigy up on top of some mountain. And I think it's really emblematic of like the Squamish Trail community. Like, people are in Squamish because they want to be in the mountains, and they want to be in the trails and amongst these people that have a passion for the outdoors. Um, and so yeah, we might not have like the track club, or we might not have, you know, all of the professionalism of some communities like Boulder or um Shamini or wherever, but there's a really strong culture here of people getting after it. And um I I love it. I love being part of that, and I love being able to kind of move between uh yeah, the climbing and the paragliding and biking and running and and have people getting after in all those different aspects.

SPEAKER_02 54:30

I've I haven't heard a person say a negative thing about it. I gotta check it out. It's like I gotta throw that's another one I gotta throw on the list is get up up, you know, get up there and check it out. It's looks pretty cool. A lot of climbers.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

Yeah, you'll have community hospitality.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah, yeah. I know Jesse, I've already touched, I've had Jesse on the podcast before, and he's he was and same with Adam uh Campbell, and they're like, You gotta you gotta check this place out. So it's on the list.

Learning Paragliding And Hike And Fly

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Uh you had mentioned paragliding with uh like hiking your paragliding stuff up. Do you do you paraglide?

SPEAKER_01 54:57

Yeah, I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Talk about this. This is that's a that's kind of an extreme sport. Like that seems you want to talk about risk, that's risky, or at least it seems like it at least. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

I mean, I've been heard worse running than I have paragliding so far. So like knock on lift, but um, yeah, I mean, paragliding and specifically hike and fly, so hiking up mountains and then flying off of them basically, is a lot bigger in Europe than it is here. And I had several friends that were in the Skyrunner community that paraglided, who had kind of been like, you gotta get a paraglider, you have to go and do this. Uh, and so last year, actually, I kind of finally carved out some time right after Mount Marathon. I like got off the plane from Mount Marathon and went um into the interior of BC and did my paragliding course. And then it was actually it was on the way home that I did the armchair from that course. And then uh headed back to Europe and had like a had like a wing bot and a harness bot, and I was like ready to go and fly. And a lot of my training last year, I did so many uphills with that thing, just like dragging it up the VK and chamony and flying off and just getting experience in this new sport. Uh, and the feeling of flying is incomparable to many others. Like it's so peaceful once you're up there, you see these mountains from a different perspective. And I've really enjoyed just being able to go from zero in a sport to having very just rapid improvement. Like you don't start that many new things as an adult, and the satisfaction of getting better at something and progressing um was really nice. It's been it's been like a great addition to my life. The paragliding community is awesome and welcoming, and um yeah, I've I've been really stoked on it in the past year, and I think it's only only encouraged me to walk uphill more. So I don't think it's taken away from my training much at all either.

SPEAKER_02 57:28

So cool. I mean, it's interesting because I I've come across quite a few runners that have kind of like transitioned I wouldn't like to to doing this extra sport, and it's another thing that everybody just seems to love. Like Jason Hardrath is kind of big into it. There's quite a few folks that are uh that are really interested in it. So and it's starting to catch on more in Colorado. I'm starting to see way more people do it between like Boulder and the front range. So that's that's really cool. Yeah, yeah. And it's I mean it's awesome too for the body because yeah, you're hiking up something like relatively heavy, and then you don't have any destruction of the legs on the on the descent because you just get to fly off, which is pretty dope.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

So yeah, it's like uphill treadmill, you know?

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Yeah. And the flying part is crazy. Like that's yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

The flying part is crazy.

SPEAKER_02 58:13

How how hard was it to uh to learn? Like, was it difficult, especially like initially? Did you have any like trepidations like um like trying to learn the whole thing and go through the courses?

SPEAKER_01 58:22

What was that pretty straightforward or um you know the I think it's a lot less dangerous than maybe people perceive it to be. The wings are the wings just like want to fly. Like once you're in the air, unless you're in super bumpy air, it's very easy to fly them. So the biggest the biggest thing that you're learning is how to take off and how to land safely. And a big part of that is just like backcountry skiing or any other sport where there's a weather component of like if you make conservative good decisions, it's not very dangerous. It becomes dangerous when you make risky decisions. So a lot of learning to paraglide is really just getting better at making decisions and having better judgment about okay, is this a reasonable place to take off? Where am I gonna land? Um, what's the wind doing? What is it going to be doing in 15 minutes? And I was really lucky to have that time in Europe last year and to be able, there's so much more infrastructure for paragliding in Europe and so many more just like fields. Like we have a lot of trees, you know, like there's no like bailout zone when you're like flying over this like valley full of trees. And in Europe, everything is bailout zone, there's just like fields everywhere. Um, so I was able to practice a lot of that, like, okay, hike up here, where am I gonna land? How do I figure that out? Uh, what's the wind doing? What's manageable, and and just get a lot of repetition. And so when I came back home, although the conditions are a little bit more difficult and you're jumping off, you know, the chief or mountain launches, I felt like I had enough confidence to go for it. And luckily, I have some like patient and fairly sandy friends that uh would take me out and uh throw me off cliffs. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:37

Do you have any plans for like, I don't know, necessarily like FKTs, but faster. I I know we were talking about risk there before, but I was like incorporating this off of like big mountains. Like the first time I learned about it was like Cedar Wright, like hiking up Pico de Orizaba and like flying off the top of it. And like obviously that's the most extreme version possible, but you know, is there any plans to like try and do some crazy stuff like that to kind of implement that and with uh maybe training or like fastest known times and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Um, I don't have any FKT plans for it right now. Um, I'd love to fly off Mont Blanc this year just for fun. Um but what I would like to use it as is when I'm kind of scoping some of these bigger FKTs uh to be able to use it as a bit of an exit uh without having to, you know, run a long ways down. There's um well, I I can say one of the FKTs that I would like to do this year is in Squamish. It's called the Tanalist Traverse, and it's this, you know, you have to do a river crossing, and it's very technical, glaciated terrain, um, a lot of scrambling. There's a few repels involved and stuff, but there's this hut in the middle of it, and it actually has like a they always have a wind flag, which means like it's kind of a de facto launch, and you can fly from there across the river all the way back to town. Much more efficient than the alternative. And so I'm really excited about being able to use it in in those kind of capacities, and um, yeah, we have a little, it's called we have a wine and fly club in Squamish. So a bunch of people will hike up to the top of a mountain in the summer, and everybody brings a bottle of wine, and then you get up early in the morning when the wind is calm and everybody flies home, and stuff like that is just like yeah, that's kind of what I do it for. I don't need to be performance in everything, and paragliding is one that's kind of just for for fun.

Sponsorship Reality And Knowing Your Worth

SPEAKER_02 1:02:48

No, I like that. I like that. All right, so we're almost at an hour. I got one last question for you. As far as like free agency goes, like you've got to be one of the biggest like free agents in the in the game right now. You gotta be talking to brands. Like, are you in that process right now? Or like kind of is there any announcement soon at some point in time for sponsors?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Or um don't hold your breath on any announcements. No. Um yeah, that's kind of its own, I would say that's it's that's its own discussion. Okay. Um no, so yeah, I mean, if there's brands out there listening, hit me up. But um I I think maybe my background as a lawyer puts me in an interesting position in this. Um, I listened to your skyrunning episode recently. Oh no. And well, one of the things that you were talking about was like, you know, whether athletes kind of know what everybody else is making and like what their own worth is. And I thought that was a super interesting discussion. Um and I would say I have a pretty good knowledge of what a lot of people uh are making, and the disparity between Canadian athletes and European athletes and American athletes is like quite large. Canadian athletes tend to get very little in comparison. Um and yeah, I think I would love to have a sponsor and to have that backing, but I'm also not willing to sign myself away for free shoes. Like there's lots of ways that athletes can make a little bit of money in this sport, things like you know, paid photo shoots for brands. Um and I'm lucky to have a skill that I can make some money off on the side. And so yeah, I mean, offers have never flown in for me for whatever reason, but um I've also yeah, I think that brands should be supporting athletes in in a fair way, and some people are getting great deals, and I think there's a lot of people that are taking very little and are you know are getting very little in exchange, and from a principled perspective, I just don't really see enough benefit in being one of them. So whether that puts me on brands kind of, you know, uh bad side, um at this point, I'm just kind of like, well, I'm kind of just gonna do what I want, and if it feels right, great. But otherwise, um I'll keep dipping into my savings to make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

No, I and I think. Listen, I I there I mean so many questions I can bring off this, but I think the first one first and foremost is it's it's so important to have values and have the high standards, like in the sense of knowing your worth. Because I do agree and I agree very strongly with this. A lot of athletes will take deals not knowing their worth or not having an agent or a lawyer negotiate it will take significantly less, and that does bring down the pot for proverbially a lot of others. And that's why we see all this disparity as well. My question to you is on the NDA side, especially as a lawyer, like, do you think we can ever get around this NDA stuff? Like, is there any way that brands will start being more transparent and pay? And because I think once we break that down and get more transparency on that end, that's when we'll start to see more, I guess, just more equality in the money all around, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because in Europe there seems to be a lot more standardization of what people are getting and a lot more, you know, people kind of know, like if you're here, this is sort of what you get. And like that's been the case since I've started racing in Europe, that it did seem more open to me, and I knew from the beginning what people at my level were getting, and like I can sort of be open about that. Like it was in 2023, people around my level, so like I've increased from there, were making about 10,000 euro a year. And in the US and Canada, that was not the case, and is still not the case, and so I don't know that the NDAs are really the problem, to be honest. Like, I think there's enough information out there, um, but I think the problem maybe is more like even though that's the case, people are still taking really bad deals. I think there's like there's people want to be sponsored. I totally get that. Like, I have you know, at times been like, man, I just want the legitimacy of a logo on my chest. And some people really need the$5,000 in travel to be able to make this happen for themselves, and if they don't get it, then they just can't go to UKandy. You know, and that's I totally get that. And if I was 23, maybe I would just like take whatever as well because it's exciting and it gives you that little bit of momentum, and that's awesome. But I'm in the unique position of having a little bit of like self-funding, and I just think if everybody's taking bad deals and the brands are gonna give you a bad deal, like you're in corporate finance, I'm in law, like this is a business proposition. Like, I know I could get a better sponsor if I put more effort into my Instagram, but I don't feel like that's the best use of my 20 hours a week. I could just spend, you know. So I I think I look at it from a very realistic business perspective, and having been in-house at a retail company that deals with influencers and and stuff, and um, I know what the brands are getting out of athletes and how much money they're making off of us, and I understand the constraints of that. And and for me personally, I'm just like from a principal perspective, I even if everybody else is taking you know, the a certain deal, if I don't feel like it's a fair representation of what I'm worth or of the value that the brand is getting, like, then I'd rather just not have a deal.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:03

No, I I stand with you on that one. I I definitely I I I really agree with everything you say. It's it's tricky, it's complicated in the sport now. Because like you said, and we're now it's multi multi-country, multi multi-continent, you know, to where you know athletes in Canada versus the United States versus Europe, it's yeah, I don't know. And and some brands of like ACG pay a shit ton now. I it's kind of crazy. Um and then you'll see other brands that just don't even come close. So I and I that's the other thing, too. I wonder if now with the more market players entering the the fold like ACG um and even Hoka and and brands like that paying more. I I wonder how much that will raise things up to from you know push the push brands because athletes are just gonna leave if they can get more in another brand. Like why would you stay? It doesn't make sense. So I wonder how that's gonna and I also wonder too if agents, more agents entering the sport hopefully can negotiate and bring help athletes learn their worth more. I think that's a big conversation that needs to be had because you take your average 25-year-old runner, they don't know. Like they have no idea what their worth is. They and if you have five, 10,000 followers on Instagram, you know, I mean that that's a that's a lot of marketing power for you to bring to, you know, and that that you'll be able to give back in value. So yeah, it's uh we could do a whole podcast on this.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Totally. And there's, I think, you know, outside of like the ACG and the Brooks and that, there's now starting to be other players like Kyle Sfuga and some of the um Asian brands coming in. And then you have to compare, you know, like what do you want from this brand? Do you want money? Do you do you just like want some money thrown at you? Or does you know the having access to like team camps with really good athletes and testing and you know, logistics at UTMB and the experience of people on the team? Like, what do you really want from this partnership? Um, and some people will have some people want the money, and some people will say, I'll take half the money if I can get access to Killian and be with normal. So yeah, it's starting to be a more dynamic space, I think. Um, and I'm interested to see where it goes. But I think the realities of the market are always going to be a factor, and the fact that Canada is a small market and that there's not even people who don't even have offices in Canada is always going to make it more difficult for Canadian athletes to get the same offers that you know our American and European counterparts are getting. That's kind of like been my experience, and I don't know if it's gonna change anytime soon, unfortunately.

Canada Funding Limits And Team Support

SPEAKER_02 1:12:59

It's interesting. And I I know we're kind of limited on time here, but and and I don't want to go too so too far off the subject, but I did have a great conversation with Josh about worlds and about investment from Canada into Team Canada. Like this year, like you guys had a medal team, women are absolutely crushing it. Like all the teams did really well for Team Canada this year at the World Mountain Running Championship. Do you think there'll be more investment from Canada kind of into that team going forward?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

Um Canada's like I mean, I don't want to go off on a tangent too much about this, but like basically Canada's sports system is pretty low funded generally. Like the American system gets a lot of private donations. I've like done some work in sport policy, and there's just not much money to go around in Canada, like Olympians are living off$300 a month in sport stipends in Canada. There's just not a lot of sport funding. And because of the way the system is set up, um, unless you're in an Olympic sport, it's really difficult to access some of the funding that's available. So I think the people at um Athletics Canada that are responsible for trail running are great and are doing everything that they can to support us. Um, but do I think that there's going to be a significant increase in funding? No, I don't. Um, I think that's just that's the reality of it. And um I appreciate everything Athletics Canada is doing with what they have, and I think they're being thoughtful and they're including us in the process. And um I think we can we will see some increased support, even in just, you know, whether it's okay, where can we we have this funding, how can we best allocate it in the off-year, like Josh was talking about. Um but just you know, just like New Zealand, just like Great Britain, like almost I would say, aside from five countries at world, everybody else was like scraping by, buying their own travel. Like there's very few countries that are well funded in trail running. Um and until it becomes like a national priority, which like is not really gonna happen. I think that's just what you're stuck with. And that's that's fine. Like, you know, it's it is what it is, and you can do a lot with a little, you know. There's like we all banded together and rented a house for 10 days, and yeah, that was coming out of our pocket, but like we were still there, we still got to check out the trails, like I don't know. I think there's uh would I love more money? Yeah, sure, but we'll make it happen. Canada will make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

But you guys still you guys showed up, man, like in a big way. It was a great year for you guys. Um yeah, to your point, like, yeah, I I had Jackson Cole on the podcast, and he he's a New Zealander, and uh yeah, having to pay I mean, they paid like for everything. I was just like, man, like that's that's difficult to have to pay for everything is crazy. Like, and and it's crazy because like the Americans complain, and like they could. I mean, and there's some legitimate complaints there compared to other sports, but like what other sports get, but like we don't have anything to complain about when you're comparing it to like New Zealand and that's gotta pay their own way for pretty much everything and for their uniforms. It's like, what the heck? It's crazy.

Closing Thoughts And Listener Support

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we did get our uniforms paid for, so shout out to Athletics Canada on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

Um, Callie, I think this is a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I I uh I can't wait for round two. I I really appreciate your insights into the sport and you know, talking the contract stuff and then about your resume. I mean, it it's absolutely crazy. And uh yeah, I can't wait to see what the future holds for you as you continue this uh this dominance in the sport. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:15

Thanks. Yeah, I was I'm glad we got a chance to chat and thanks so much for yeah, your support of all of us out there and having the Canadian runners on. And um I hope to talk to you soon. Hopefully, we'll have some good results to share later later this year. I'd love to chat again.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

Absolutely. Thank you so much. What'd you guys think? Uh, thanks so much for tuning in. Uh big fan of Callie's and even bigger fan after having a chat with her on the pod. Uh, just uh a consummate professional and uh someone who I just can't wait to see you know what she continues to do in her career in Skyrunning. Guys, the best way you can support her is to give her a follow on Instagram. You can find her at Callie McChrystal. That's gonna be under at Cali underscore MCC on Instagram. Give her a follow. Let her know what you thought about the show. I'm sure she'd love to hear from you guys. Um, very last but not least, if you have been enjoying the show, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. Hit that subscribe button wherever you're getting your podcasts on YouTube. That would be amazing. I'm gonna start really leaning into the YouTube side. I've been I've been kind of lazy. The whole video editing thing is it's a lot of work. I don't know how people do that. Or maybe I'm just really bad at it. Probably both. Um yeah, guys, I really appreciate it. We've got some really cool stuff coming down the pipeline. We're gonna be uh releasing some new uh free agency podcasts over the next few days, uh, or really over the next week for some our new Arcterics athletes. Um we're gonna be also dropping some interviews with the new Trail Team uh selections for the Trail Team Elite, which is really exciting. We've got some in-person live stuff and we've got some sponsor announcements we're finally gonna be making, hopefully within the next month or so, which I'm super excited about because it's been it's been a long time coming and finally ready to uh kind of start putting the plans out there for the rest of 2026 and what we're gonna be doing this summer. So, guys, I really appreciate your support and thanks so much for tuning in. Like I said, hit that subscribe button on YouTube. If you don't already follow us on uh on Strava, not on Strava, on Spotify, please give us a follow. Same with Apple. Um, and like I said, if you've been enjoying it, five-star reading and review. And if you're doing this on Apple, let us know why. Love to hear your words on why you like the podcast and uh what interest you. So thanks so much.