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The Steep Stuff Podcast
#180 - Taylor Stack
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A muddy mountainside, a deafening wall of fans, and a start line stacked with icons of trail running. Taylor Stack joins us right after Zegama to break down the day he turned a “maybe top 20 is solid” opportunity into a third place podium against one of the deepest Golden Trail World Series fields anywhere. If you’ve ever wondered what it actually feels like to race in Europe’s steep, wet, technical chaos and still finish fast, Taylor gives the clearest picture I’ve heard.
We get into the unsexy stuff that creates big results: consistent training, finding your personal volume sweet spot, and why he avoids chasing hero workouts for confidence. Taylor explains how he uses early-season races as rust busters, how living around 9,000 feet shapes his fitness, and why he drops down in elevation for faster sessions. We also talk metrics and why he keeps it simple with pace and heart rate instead of obsessing over running power.
Then we go mile by mile through Zegama: the shockingly hard early pace, the iconic Sancti Spiritu climb shoulder to shoulder with Kilian Jornet, and the decision to stay controlled so he could attack late. Taylor shares how he fueled, how Golden Trail bottle service changes the game, what he saw when Kilian’s day went sideways, and the mindset shift required to move from “podium is a dream” to “winning is the goal.”
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Welcome And Why Zegama Matters
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your host, James L'Oriello. And today I'm so excited to welcome Taylor Stack back to the show. This time for a very special conversation recapping his The Gama performance, where Taylor catapulted himself onto the international stage by getting himself a third place podium finish amongst some of the best in our sport. Taylor came on the show to recap it all. We talked all about his race. We talked a lot about training and what he'd been up to in the offseason, some of his prep races, and just where he sees himself going in in the future. We talked a lot about the combination of uh talent versus hard work, along with mindset and just how important the mindset is for an athlete. And Taylor just seems to kind of have it all. And that's why I personally think he is well on his way to becoming one of the great American athletes of our sport, um, you know, on the international scene. And uh it's just getting started right now, and you guys are here and here first. So I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation. Uh, it's really cool, it's kind of a full circle moment. Um, you know, I had Taylor on back when, just before he won the Imogene pass run like three years ago. And uh it's been really fun to kind of follow his uh his ascension in the sport over the last few years. And and guys, here we are. You know, now the dude's you know in contention for winning races on the main stage of our sport. And that's kind of wild. So I hope you guys enjoy this one. I hope it's as special for you as it was for me. Without further ado, Taylor Stack. Hey now. This is the Steep Stuff Podcast! Taylor Stack, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man?
SPEAKER_00Good, yeah. Good to see you, James. Thanks for having me back on the pod.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude, I'm excited to chat with you. Oh my gosh, what a dude, what a I mean, like we all knew you were capable of it, especially given last year. But to go out and like hit a home run at Zagama, I mean, that's the best an American male has done, I think. I mean, outside of your third place and your fourth place last year at the final, third place at Plitz Alpin Glacier, uh, no one's really done that well male American in the Golden Trail World Series, maybe since like Eli Hemming. It's been it's been a minute, man. So you're uh you're doing it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, trying to do it. I mean, yeah, I definitely it feels cool to like represent the rare American like top performances at races like Zagama and like these kind of European style, super rowdy, steep techie, wet, muddy races where you know it's not really viewed as like the Americans place to thrive. But you know, I think you know, I I'm good at it, and I think you know, the US has more people who are good at that stuff than maybe the world realizes, and it's fun to go out there and and represent.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. I I gotta ask you this off the bat. You seem like you've picked up exactly where you left off in 2025. Like you had, like I said before, you know, third place at Pit Open, sixth place at Broken Arrow, fourth in the final, and then you roll right into arguably the biggest performance of your career thus far with a third place at Sagama in an absolutely probably the most stacked field you may have ever been in. Um I mean, everybody was there, and you you perform. Um, as far as just like feelings and elatement and stoke after this, like where do you land kind of with everything?
SPEAKER_00It feels amazing. Like it's just the one of the most exciting things I've ever done. And like you said, I mean, last year was really great for me, and I had a lot a lot of good performances and and kind of showed up in a way that um I hadn't before. Um, but then you know, you see that sometimes where people have like really amazing years and amazing performances, and then they for whatever reason can't recreate them. And so just going up, showing up to Zagama this year and like being able to not only continue what I've been doing, but you know, probably improve on some of those performances from last year just feels really good. And it's a huge confidence booster that like like no, it wasn't a fluke, like I'm here and I'm like gonna keep doing this and keep building. So yeah, I mean it's just it's one of the best feelings in the world to really knock it out of the park at a race like that with you know so much clout and so much visibility and just the experience overall. I mean, can't really ask for much better outcome. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, dude, I said it last year, like after Plitz Alpin Glacier, but I gotta say it like now. Like you you've kind of arrived. Like you are you are there, dude. Like you're uh you know, outside of Christian Allen, like we don't have a ton of American men like really crushing it over there, and you're really like holding it down for the American men, you know, and I think that's really freaking cool.
SPEAKER_00So thanks, dude. Yeah, I mean, definitely trying to. And Christian's so strong, obviously, and like he's kind of been the other, you know, of this era, probably the other most like high performing American man on like the Golden Trail scene specifically. Um but yeah, I mean, I think we do have a lot of great athletes here, and you know, a lot of the battle with some of these races in Europe, for example, is just like getting to the start line and like figuring out how you're gonna support the travel to get out there. Um and yeah, the bummer about it is that yeah, it can be kind of inaccessible sometimes um for folks, like especially if you're you don't have like a travel budget or a sponsor or anything like that. Um but yeah, I mean it's it's feels really great. And yeah, it's fun to represent the US on that stage. And um, yeah, I mean, the races are just so fun, and I I really enjoy that style of racing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right. So I I gotta get into before we get into the race and talking about that, I gotta ask you about kind of just the picking up where you left off. I was there anything specifically, I mean, like I I follow you on Strava, like I see what more or less what you're doing. I mean, very consistent, solid training, you know hero workouts, you just stack bricks. Um you know, nothing looks crazy, crazy sexy, but like you just build this amazing base in the offseason. How was there anything you made adjustments to going in from last year to this year that you thought you wanted to work on? Um anything uh aside from just kind of like you picked up from last year to kind of move into this year.
Sponsor Break And Training Consistency
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SPEAKER_00Honestly, yeah. Like in terms of the structure and like types of workouts and volume and stuff like that, not much has changed since last year. And I think the name of the game is just finding the sweet spot of volume for you. Um, and you know, having some key workouts, it doesn't have to be that crazy complicated. And then just trying to be as consistent as possible over months and years, and like with that consistency, you're gonna keep developing and keep getting better. And yeah, I mean, I I definitely don't like I think training and trying to crush super, like you said, sexy workouts or like stuff like that, you know, it can be a confidence booster. Um, but I don't think that that is necessarily where the big gains come from. I think it's more just like, you know, putting in the consistent work every day and you know, controlling your effort so that you know you can recover it and like maximize your quality over time rather than like really trying to crush certain workouts or hit certain splits and stuff like that. Um and I think, yeah, I mean I'm I'm really stoked with how I'm responding to my training and don't need to overcomplicate anything or try to um you know do anything different. You know, if it's working, stick with it and we'll keep developing. So that's been the mindset.
SPEAKER_01No, I love it. It's and it speaks to, you know, it speaks to just the importance of consistency, you know, and people understanding that like you don't have to do these crazy hero workouts. And yes, like you said, build can you know it'll build confidence in some degree, but if you leave your race on Strava, you know, you're not gonna have performances like the one you had, you know. It it it speaks to kind of the you know, stacking bricks and um Yeah, just being very consistent with what you do, which I find interesting. Uh pivoting from the training, um dude. Talk about like obviously you go out, you um you crushed uh the run through time marathon, obviously. Did that give you uh it's always hard to know where you're at, right? Kind of going into the season. Um what gave you confidence going into this? Like, because I think that was like your only race going in, right?
SPEAKER_00I did that one, then I did uh Desert Rats UTMB 50K last month as well. So um, yeah, and kind of both of those, you know, run through time is uh in Celida, it's where I grew up, and I've done that race like so many times. And it's more just like kind of a fun sentimental thing for me, um without any like big you know performance goals, and it's a pretty low-key race. Although it does attract like kind of a surprising level of depth and talent for a race as like um maybe not so well known as it is, but super fun. Um, yeah, I mean that's just like fun hangout family time. And also I think it's nice to get a little Rust Buster after, especially winter when for me, you know, my running volume wasn't all that much living in Crested Butte right now. So I was doing a lot of skiing, you know, staying aerobically fit, but that kind of mechanical side, the running specificity and then the leg durability, that's where you know it takes a few efforts, I think, to get that back at the beginning of the season. So that was kind of the goal with run through times, just to go, you know, test out the fitness, um, and then get a nice stimulus of like, you know, running hard downhills and racing for three hours. Um and then Desert Rats was a similar thing. That was my first 50K, so it was nice to get a longer effort like that, especially leading up to Zagama, which is a marathon, but because of the course and the terrain, it ends up being a four-hour race for the top men, or you know, under for some, but um, which is the longest race I've ever done. So I think doing a 50K a month out from Zagama was a was an important stimulus to, you know, like make sure that I'm able to keep pushing after the three-hour mark, which is kind of the more uncharted territory for me. Um and like neither of those performances, run through time or desert routes, was like anything super special or spectacular, I think. But um, they didn't really need to be. Um that wasn't the purpose of those. So I think um, yeah, I mean, my confidence more comes from, you know, like seeing what I've been able to do in the past at competitive races like last year, um, and also just, you know, seeing my training and and like consistent volume up to a certain point and certain workouts, like we just talked about, not crushing anything or doing anything like you know, super sexy, but just seeing that consistency and knowing that like I've been able to perform well off of similar training before, so I should be ready now.
Prep Races That Build Durability
SPEAKER_01Do you think um just in any way, like living up higher than Solidanelle, obviously in crested butte, has that helped at all? Do you do you feel like what is that like almost 9,000 feet or over 9,000 feet? So it's got to be a little bit more of an altitude uh like stimulus that you've got when you more red blood cells, if you will, when you go to race, you know, like sea level level races.
SPEAKER_00Definitely, yeah. So crested butte, yeah, it's like just under 9,000 feet where I'm living right now. Um and I think you know, I've lived at altitude for most of my life, so I respond pretty well to it. But yeah, I mean, like you say, even the jump from Celida, which is like 7,000 feet, that extra 2,000 feet makes a huge difference there. More of a difference than, you know, like the jump between 5,000 and 7,000 because of the kind of exponential effect that it has as you go up in altitude. Um but yeah, so training at altitude, I think it can be good if you're you know you're focused on your recovery and nutrition, like all of those very important things because it is an extra stress on the body. Um, but you know, it can be a double-edged sword as well in terms of like there's mechanical limitations and like power output limitations that you know, doing workouts at 9,000 feet, you're your you know, hypoxia becomes the limiting factor, not your actual power and like top end speed that you're able to hit. And so I like to go down to Gunnison, um, which is like 30 minutes down the road and about a thousand feet lower for my like kind of faster workouts and stuff like that to, you know, like even that thousand feet allows me to kind of run faster workouts on the track and tap into that higher power zone. And then I do more of my kind of easy aerobic volume at the higher altitude up in C B. That seems to be working really well for me. And went down the C level at Zagama and it was like, oh man, I'm really noticing the benefits. I feel like a god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And especially for races like Zagama or these, you know, technical mountain races where it's like you're not running that fast for a lot of it. So the mechanical or like speed limitations that you have training at altitude don't matter quite as much because it becomes more of an aerobic contest, anyways.
SPEAKER_01This is out of pure curiosity, this is something I I just started talking to my coach about and we we'd kind of messed around with just more discussion around it. Do you pay a lot of attention to power, like your your power output um for just like everyday training? Like, do you do you look at that at all? Uh or because I know you just mentioned, or only for workouts do you pay, like for certain wattages and things like that, like wattage zones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no I I um don't pay attention to power in terms of like wattage. Um I I when I say power, I just mean like being able to like power up a hill, like do hill strides really fast or run fast track workouts. As a metric, I don't look at power at all. Um I look at pace and heart rate and things like that. Um yeah, that's kind of more I don't really have a good sense of like what's a lot of power in terms of watts and all that. So I don't that's not a metric that I really use.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a weird stat. It is kind of all over the place unless you have like a watt, like I guess the monitor on your um or like the measure or on your shoe, I guess you could put on a chorus makes one. But like if you look at people's wattages, like they're all over the place. Like I see some people with like 400 kilojoules, I'm like, that's a lot, that's insane. And I see some people with like 190, I'm like, that's not a lot, but they're running the same distance and speed. How does that make sense? So yeah, it's an awfully yeah, it's an interesting metric.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems more useful or more widely used in biking compared to running.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, big time, big time. All right, let's let's uh shift over, let's talk about the race, dude.
Altitude Strategy Without Overthinking Metrics
SPEAKER_01Like uh how long out there did you get uh or how how far out before the race did you get out there? Did you get to see the whole course beforehand? What was the experience like culturally? Talk to me about all this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, it came out, so the race was Sunday and then flew on landing on Tuesday. So had, yeah, like four or five days before the race to get you know beat the jet lag and kind of settle in and and um you know get some running legs under. And I you I honestly it was probably the easiest I've ever recovered from big long travel like that in terms of jet lags. So I was happy with how quickly I felt normal. Um, but yeah, I mean that's another challenge of these big international races is the logistics and the like energy suck that travel can be, and then jet lags effects. Um, so that's something I learned last year, like kind of ways to make that less of a factor. Um But yeah, I mean, we had some time to kind of hang out in Zagama and the surrounding area and the communities out there, little villages. Very cool country, um, rugged mountains, but it's you know, pretty close to the coast, so it it's very lush, kind of feels similar to the eastern US in a lot of ways, um, but definitely with some differences, like very kind of European forests. It was very rainy for like two weeks leading up to the race, so there was mud and you know, slippery rocks, and it was pretty greasy conditions for sure. Um, which, you know, that made it interesting. Um but yeah, I mean, the you know, moving into like closer to race day, the the like energy in Zagama itself is just like nothing I've ever seen. Like the the fans out there and the culture and this how much they love their mountains and they love their race. I mean, it's that's Zagama has their reputation as you know, like this really cool cultural experience where you know the excitement and the energy from the fans is like, you know, you don't see that ever. And I really, you know, that was accurate for me. I've never experienced anything like that in any other race. Um, you know, at the athlete presentation the day before that Golden Trail does, and they bring kind of the top 10 ranked people up on stage, and it was like a packed auditorium and people spilling out onto the street for as far as you can see, just thousands of people in this tiny little village. Like, yeah, very cool, totally unique. You know, the fans they they just love the sport so much over there, and yeah, I mean, super fun, unique experience.
SPEAKER_01Is that is it intimidating for you at all being because now you know Golden Trail obviously knows who you are, and you know, there's there's information out there about you uh in some of like the pre-race stuff, they're talking about you as a favorite, and you know, you're at this press conference. Does that get in your head at all? How do you how do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been an interesting shift because I feel like from last year for the most part, I was not really known at all and kind of had that underdog mentality, which can be kind of nice sometimes because it makes it a you know, there's nothing but opportunity. If you ball out, then it's like, whoa, you like no one knew who this is. But if you have a tough race, like no one expected anything different. Um, but yeah, you're right. Now it's a little different. Like um, my name is thrown around kind of in the pre-race um like media and stuff like that. I will say kind of less so for this one, just because of how absolutely loaded the field was. Like, I wasn't really expected to be one of the top people going in. So I think Golden Trail had me ranked like eighth place going in, and it's a field with like Killian and Remy Bonnet and Manu Maria, and you know, the list goes on. It's just insane. So I still kind of maintained some of that like underdog mentality going into this one, I think, which um can be nice, and it kind of takes some of the pressure off. And I knew like, you know, like this rate, this is one of the most prestigious like mountain races in the world, and like if I get 20th place, like that's a strong result. So um I was kind of like, you know, I I know on a good day that I'm capable of popping off and like hopefully running with these guys, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Not every day can be the best day. So I'm just gonna go out there and like rut do what I can and trust my instinct and see what happens.
Zegama Hype And Handling Expectations
SPEAKER_01Let's get let's get into the race. You're standing on the start line, Killian's right there, everybody's right there. You got Remy in the mix. I mean, a lot of guys you've obviously raced over the years, you know, like El Housine, um, you know, quite a few uh of the sport's best. Um Gun Goes Off. Walk me through it. Because it seemed like there was this mix of El Huzine. I guess it was El, I don't know, it was hard to follow from my end, but it seemed like you were in this top six mix-ish. Uh with you and Killian kind of zigzagging up to the up to Spear to Spear to I can't remember the name of the club. I'll let you paint the picture though. Doc walk me through this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. The start line was crazy. I mean, it's just like looking around, and every other person on the front of the line is like an absolute legend of the sport, like mythical level legend. And so I was like, whoa, this is crazy. And so yeah, I was there and wasn't really sure what to expect in terms of how the pace was gonna feel at the beginning, because you know, like I say, it's I mean, it really is more of a 50k effort compared to some of these other golden trail races that are shorter, and it's like, yeah, you're gonna be going hard. So I was maybe naively kind of expecting that it might be a little more controlled at the beginning, just because it is a four-hour race, and then gun went off, we're going, and it's like, nope, we're still running, you know, sub five minute great adjusted pace right at the beginning here. So it feels like a normal golden trail race. And yeah, so I kind of just settled into the top 10, and I was keying off of my Brooks teammate Daniel Pattis, who he got third last year, and he's a freaking beast. So um I kind of Of I've been hanging out with him at the Brooks house or the hotel that we had and kind of asking him questions because I mean he has some seriously good results over the years and I trusted kind of his strategy. So I was keying off of him for as long as I could, and we were running pretty fast. Remy Bonet really took off at the beginning and tried to gap everybody on the climb um with how strong of a climber he is. And um yeah, I mean I felt good. It felt pretty hard at the beginning, you know, like kind of inching towards that VO2 max like effort on some of those early climbs. And I was like, wow, like I'm gonna blow up at some point here. Like this is too long of a race to be feeling this hard. Um, so I tried to kind of inch back my effort a little bit and stay controlled, knowing that like this is a long race, the longest race time-wise that I've ever done. And I can't be feeling like this level of effort right at the beginning. So that kind of brought me back into like sixth position leapfrogging with Killian and um Manu Maria was back there, and it was yeah, kind of us three like going back and forth um up to the Sancte Spiritu climb. And you know, I was running with Killian up that, and that's that iconic climb. Um, if you've seen pictures of Zagama, that's probably what you see where there are just hundreds of people up there, and the you know, they're on either side of the trail, and the the cheering is the loudest thing I've ever heard, you know, people five inches away from your ear just screaming and bells, and like it's
Race Start Pace Control And The Iconic Climb
SPEAKER_00like such a wild experience. And like, yeah, I mean you're you've already done like 6,000 feet of climbing at that point. Um, but just that energy makes it feel easier. Like you just can you can power up, and sometimes that's uh that can kind of come back and bite you because you know you have the adrenaline from the cheering, and then you like power up that climb, then all of a sudden you're like totally lactic at the top. Um but yeah, I mean, super just wild energy, like nothing I've ever experienced before at any race, and just such a cool experience. And I was looking around and just trying to take it all in and appreciate like that's Killian Journey right there, like the GOAT, the goat of this race. And I'm running the most iconic segment ever right with him. And we have Manu Maria as the former champion, former OCC champion, absolute legend of skyrunning over the last 10 years, right there, and like little old Taylor Stack just right in the mix, right there. It's just crazy feeling. So such a cool thing. And at that point, I was like, I mean, you have a long ways to go. And I was like, I'm probably just being stupid, and I'm gonna totally blow up and like pay for this mistake at some point. But fortunately, I really was able to just finish strong. You know, the I stayed strong the entire race, felt really, really great, honestly, through the end and into the last downhill where I was able to make a move and move up into podium position, just really attack. So super happy with how my body responded to the longer event, you know, kind of running towards that four-hour um mark for the first time and feeling really strong. So, you know, it gives me confidence. Like I can run well at a 50k, um, which is nice because some people are crushers at the you know, golden trail 20k kind of distance, but they have trouble making that step up. And I really would like to be able to run a good 50k, you know, in the next few years, and that gave me a lot of confidence.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I mean, dude, it's a good test run for like an OCC. Like that's it's right there. Same characters, you know, and just a little bit longer. Uh it's uh yeah, I mean, it's a it's a great little test piece to know that you know, for little feather in your cap that you can absolutely go perform there. Um, talk to me about making the move on Manu to get the podium
Closing Hard For The Podium
SPEAKER_01spot. Like, could you tell he was fading a little bit? Like, how when did you know that I'm gonna stick it to him and I'm gonna I'm gonna make this move and uh because dude, that's a that's a clutch move, bro. Like, think about that. Like, I'm serious, like in the sense where this is a former champion, also one of the best downhillers on planet Earth. And you're gonna pass him to go get a go, you know, get on the podium. That's nuts.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, pretty crazy feeling. I mean, I think what it came down to was who saved enough energy to really be able to attack that last downhill and who kind of cooked themselves early in the race. And we saw, yeah, I think Remy and Manu were both, you know, like looking at videos of Manu's downhill running when he's like attacking, he's the best in the world. It's like he he's so beautiful with it, just like flowing down technical terrain like water, you know. Um but I think you know, in this case, that last downhill, it is very runnable. So I think you have to have pretty good leg speed. It's not just like a technical kind of scramble, like throw yourself down. It's like, no, you gotta you gotta be turning over and like powering down that thing. And um, if you you know maybe gave a little bit too much on the early climbs, I think that's when we see people suffering. And and that's kind of what was happening. So I was fortunately, I think I controlled my effort early in the race just enough to be able to tap into my kind of higher end leg speed on that last kind of runnable section. And yeah, past Remy, past Manu, and I was like, you know, moved into third. And then it was like, uh all I need to do is just keep my foot on the gas here and not mess up and not blow up for the last like four miles, and that's gonna be podium. And so that's all I was thinking about, just absolutely attacking every little bit that I can. Yeah, and I think you know, that section does favor people with maybe faster kind of flat speed, you know, and so it might maybe my track background kind of shone through a little bit during that section to be able to run, you know, like low five minute miles down that section. So yeah, super crazy. You know, it felt I I couldn't believe I was moving into podium position. Um, but yeah, fortunate to be able to be so strong that late in the race.
SPEAKER_01Any um any cramping? Uh, do what did you nail your nutrition? Like, was there any mishaps with that, or did you feel just great the whole time, kind of with the nutrition perspective?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fortunately I felt pretty great. Um, the conditions, you know, the surface was ridiculously muddy and slippery, like comically bad at times. Um, but the the weather itself on race day and temperature and everything was absolutely perfect. Um, so I think, yeah, for me, my hydration and nutrition, you know, felt pretty ideal. I was not really tracking, I was kind of just going off of vibes rather than like numbers. And, you know, whenever I had an opportunity, I was like, yeah, I should slam a gel here. And I was using kind of like a high carb mix and just trying to be conscious about it throughout, but also not getting like super obsessed and and worked up over it. And yeah, I think I nailed it. I mean, I felt strong and and was fueled the whole time. So pretty happy with that. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Did you have anybody like crewing you, or were you kind of just uh like on your own and just doing your own thing with it?
SPEAKER_00There, yeah, they had a bottle service basically out there. So you could start with a bottle and then kind of swap it out at different points on the course, which is nice because then you don't have to carry everything the whole time. Um, that is one nice thing about the golden trail races, you know, you don't have to carry all of your gear the whole time. So yeah, that was nice. I just had like one little belt and I was only carrying one bottle at a time, which is uh it's a nice luxury to be able to do that. Nice, nice.
SPEAKER_01Dude, what happened with Killian? Did he fall? Because I I I've
Nutrition Bottle Service And What Happened To Kilian
SPEAKER_01seen like conflicting things to where he got he had some pain or he was having because he was right there with you guys, obviously, in the climb, and then it seemed like he obviously something happened on the descent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's it. I'm not exactly sure, you know, specifically what was going on with him because he was running strong, you know, near the beginning, you know, but you might expect him to be pushing up with Remy on the climb, you know, given his legacy at this race, and just he won 10 out of his last 11 attempts at the race. So um it was a little surprising to see him kind of faltering and like running with someone like me back in you know, fifth, sixth place for most of it. And so you could tell, like, yeah, maybe you know, this isn't like an A-day for Killian. Um and then, yeah, I'm not sure if it was, you know, some pain or just kind of a tough off day. You know, it happens to everyone. Um, but I came past him kind of before the last climb, and then there's the last big descent. Um, so probably around like 25k is when I like ultimately passed him, and he was pretty much kind of just standing there, and like I could tell that his race was over and he and he was just gonna jog it in at that point. Um, but I yeah, I'm not exactly sure what happened, but it kind of just goes to show like you know, we're all mortals and everyone has tough days out there, and um, you know, like just because Killian's in this race doesn't mean that you know, like he's guaranteed to win. Like everyone, everyone is fallible and yeah, and he too he was very gracious about it, and um, it was impressive to see his his attitude, and like, you know, even on a tough day, he still jogs it in and like is like high fiving all the fans and is very gracious and like congratulating everyone after the race. And yeah, I mean he's he's an awesome guy, and um it was just cool to you know experience that and like be able to run with him for so much of the race as someone like me.
SPEAKER_01So special, dude, to be able to share some miles with him. Like that's so cool. And in a in a like a race like this, like that's I mean, it's a memory memory you'll have for the rest of your life, you know. It's that's that's very special. Um and you know, dude, hats off. I gotta say, hats off to Killian. Like, you know, it's gotta be hard in that situation, especially if it's not your day. You never heard like you don't it's not like he went on Instagram and was like making excuses. You didn't hear any of that. You know, he was pretty quiet and you know, just said, Well, I enjoyed it from a different pace and yada yada yada and had a great and enjoyed myself. And I I gotta say, like, massive respect uh for that to not make excuses and not do anything. It speaks to the character of the person, which is cool.
SPEAKER_00So totally. Yeah, I mean, so much respect for him and his like lack of ego about it. And yeah, I mean, it just reinforces his status as like the GOAT and an inspiration to all of us, and you know, someone that we can emulate in terms of his performance and also his mindset and how gracious he is with everyone.
SPEAKER_01So, for getting on the podium, did you get one of the cool hats?
SPEAKER_00No, just the winner gets the hat. So yeah, maybe next time.
SPEAKER_01Dude, what would that mean to you to become the first American male champion? Like, no one's really had much success there American-wise since Stevie, which is kind of nuts.
SPEAKER_00It is nuts, yeah. I mean, that that's definitely something I think about. You know, getting on the podium, it's like, well, what's the next step, right? Like, um, I showed that I can perform there and like why not? Why not go for the win someday? You know, Lusine's a tough guy to beat every year. You know, Zagama's gonna be a loaded race and it's like a highly coveted win. But yeah, I mean, that's that's the type of thing that like I dream about, and I want to believe that I'm the type of person who could, you know, be the first American man ever to win um a race like Zagama. So yeah, I mean, and and getting on the podium this year just kind of adds the confidence, like, you know, that's not that crazy of a thing to dream about at this point. So I definitely, you know, knowing the course now and having gone out there and had the experience one time, I think, you know, hopefully I can keep going out there and improve and you know, maybe take take home a win for the US someday.
SPEAKER_01So I'd love to hear it, man. And I this is a question I actually had for you is, you know, with this, like you're right there and you keep improving and improving and improving. I mean, it is the logical, you know, next step, obviously, for you. And I wouldn't be surprised at all, even to see this year for you to go get a, you know, like a win, like something like Plitz Alpin Glacier or something like that, just because I don't know, you just keep getting better and better and better. Um, how what do you think as far as like Al Housin and some of these guys in the front? Like, do you is the gap a lot smaller than than people think? Because I feel like you're right there, dude.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's kind of sometimes I feel like I'm right there, and then sometimes I realize like, no, there's still some work to be done. Especially here, you know, I was seven minutes back from Daniel and Elusine. That's a substantial amount of time. You know, that's the same time that separated me from like 12th place. So, you know, there's definitely fitness to be gained and experience to be gained and um stuff like that. I think that's gonna help. Um, but yeah, in terms of like, you know, getting to the point where, you know, we're not just thinking about podiums, we're thinking about winning these races. You know, I'm definitely there. Like I have to be there. You know, that's the sport is progression, and you build on past performances and like set your goals higher and higher. So that has to be my goal. Um, and I think it just comes down to like keep you know putting myself in the mix and you know, keep having good days and trying to have, you know, trying to have a good day. Someone else has a moderate day, and like that's when things like this happen. So um, and also, you know, you look at someone like Elo Z and you can look back, you know, five years ago, and he was yeah, I mean, he was getting top fives and podiums and stuff, but he didn't unlock this like total like dominance of winning every single race until you know the last two, three years. And so I
The Gap To Winning And The Mindset Shift
SPEAKER_00think, you know, you learn, you develop, um, and he's he is just like a tactical master. Like he has the perfect strategy of staying within striking distance, but like not making any irresponsible moves early on to kind of blow himself out. And then he just has that closing speed where he he's able to lock it down at the perfect moment every single time. And I think, you know, winning sometimes it's kind of a mindset that you have to unlock rather than like, you know, like podium is a dream day for me. You know, for Elozine, it's like he's at the point where he has to go into every single race believing that he's gonna win. And every moment of every race, he still believes that he's gonna win. Even if he's holding back in sixth place and people are charging up, he he has that confidence, like, no, like I know my effort right now, and like I know that I'm gonna move up and and like attack for the win later on. So that's a mindset, you know. Like, I think you have to like unlock it. And once you do, that's when you see people like Elo Zine who are just so dominant.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I think that's the so this is interesting. This is part of why I also think like uh, and I know humbly, I don't know if you would agree with me on this, but like I think this is part of what makes you so special is is it's it's what's between your ears. I think a lot of guys in our sport uh have the talent. I think a lot of guys have the work ethic, but I I don't necessarily know if everyone comes with what's between the ears. And I think that's part of the reason why you've had so much success thus far and will continue to, is it's this mindset and uh under at least understanding that aspect. I think that's what also like makes a champion um is the brain and and and the thought process and all of these extra things that you're thinking about. Because I was gonna ask you, like, I think it is um that last like 1% has to be mental. Most of the people are generally extremely fit, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Like I would imagine physiologically, like someone like you from El Housin can't be that different. Like it's it's gotta be pretty, pretty close. So yeah, it's that that little 1% of whatever's between the ears is really interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is interesting. And I mean, I think throughout running and all sports, really like like you say, you know, mentality can can make or break everything. And like I compare, you know, my training to so many other guys, you know, in the US, like friends of mine, like teammates of mine, people, you know, and it's like, dude, I'm not doing anything that like like more impressive than any of you guys. Like I I think, you know, I look at someone like Mason Copy or like Dan Kurtz, and it's like, dude, there's no reason that these guys can't go do exactly what I just did. It's a gum, you know? Um and it just becomes yeah, I mean I I don't know exactly how, you know, it's not as simple as just like, yeah, just go out there and like be confident and trust it and put it together, you know. But like one once you figure that out, I think you know, that can make the entire difference. And it becomes, you know, it's not something physical, it's not fitness, it's like a mindset of like I belong here, and like there's no reason why I shouldn't be like fighting for a podium spot here. And I think at Zagama and races, you know, golden trail races in general, it's there's this kind of intimidation of like, oh, they're so competitive, oh, it's like impossible, like no one's no one's podiuming, no Americans are doing that. And it's like, yes, but like there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to. Like, if you look at the numbers and you look at the training, and like I run with Dan Kurtz, and he just like completely drops me on like technical downhills, and it's like, dude, that's just do that and like go out there and like be confident. Like, you you're a badass and you belong up there, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I mean, dude, I I think I mean when you're looking on paper, I mean, someone like Dan, yourself, Christian, Mason, I mean, some of the most talented young men in the sport. Um those are, I mean, that's the class I want to see. Like a lot of the guys from you know, the last worlds team, and even before, to include Dan as well, like uh, those are the guys I want to see it crushing internationally. Because everybody, you know, they all have the talent too. Dude, Dan has got to be one of the highest, probably the most highly talented prospect to ever come in our sport, you know, given what he did in college. Like he's a he's a killer. Um, so yeah, I I the you're right. I I do, dude. I think there's a lot of little things too, though. I think you travel really well. Like, I think there's something to be said about that, being able to travel overseas and and not, you know, get sick and do all you know all that stuff. Like you're able to actually show up to the race completely healthy and not get stuff in the way for that. Um, I don't know. You just have like all these little things that seem to like come together. And uh I think those little things are will what kind of what separates you. And I find that very interesting.
SPEAKER_00Well, thanks, man. Yeah. And I mean, my my sample size is pretty small, so you know, it's possible, you know, people go through ups and downs in the sport and like it's inevitable. And, you know, fortunately, I've had a good string of success here, and you know, I just want to try and do everything I can to keep it going. But, you know, I'm sure that there will be, you know, tough times, and the more the more you do it, the more likely you are to have an off day. But you know, the good days still shine through. And, you know, one thing that is comforting to me going into these kind of higher pressure races is the insight that like you're not defined by your like midday or your bad day. You're defined by your best day. And so it's like I went into Zagama where it's like, dude, I could blow up and you know get 50th place, 100 plates, whatever. Literally, no one would notice or care, and it would not like affect, you know, like that's not my identity. Um, but you do have an opportunity to like pop off and have an amazing day, and that's really what like defines your identity as an athlete. And so like that kind of that that um insight helps me kind of take the pressure off where it's like every race is just another step in the journey and another opportunity, and like they're not all gonna be perfect, and the ones that aren't perfect are just learning experiences, and you know, like that's not what defines you. But then the ones that are perfect, that's what your legacy's built on.
SPEAKER_01So true, man. It's interesting too. Like, I mean, you and I both know this. Like, you're gonna have you're you I mean, you're gonna have amazing days, and like you're gonna have a few bad days, and that's just you know, your ability to get through the bad days for to have that, you know, breakthrough moment, like when it does happen, it's gonna be pretty crazy. So that's uh it's an excellent mindset, dude. How do you work through that stuff? Like, so many people I talk to are head cases. Like, how do you reconcile all that? Um, like do you talk to someone or do you do you just come out of the box like pretty level headed with that shit?
SPEAKER_00I I don't know, man. I mean, I don't I've never um really done any sports psych or any anything like that, but yeah, I mean, just kind of it's like the little things like that, like I just mentioned. Like I have little mantras where you know, like I I think I've Always been, yeah, me maybe like one of my strengths is like overconfidence, um, where it's like, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, I'll go run in the top five of this race, and it's like on paper, I shouldn't have been in the top five, but like you'd be surprised at how much that just works. Like you can just go out there and and like do it. And yeah, I don't know, man. The the mental side of sport and performance gets really complicated, and um, even people who are on like an absolute heater for a long time and you think like oh they have it 100% figured out, like it can completely change one season, and then like you know, people end up struggling for a really long time. Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't have the answers, I don't think. I just you know, and like sometimes good days and bad days, like you can do everything right, and it's still for some like random chance, like something's off about the day, and like there's no good reason. And I think people try to like try to overanalyze everything and like find out like what why what went wrong, like what's the reason? Sometimes, like there's not really an obvious reason, you just have to like move forward and just keep trying to set yourself up for success every opportunity and give yourself a lot of chances because like it will go well eventually if you do all the right things.
SPEAKER_01Do you do you get uh like do you follow a lot of other sports, or is there any like particularly like athletes in adjacent sports that like you look up to uh for just like just to like from these perspecti perspectives?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, funny enough, I really have never been a sports fan, like in terms of you know, popular sports and you guys like football, basketball, stuff like that. Um yeah, you know, I can't really even think, you know, I have like it it mostly within running, there are like the people that I look up to. Um yeah, I don't have a good answer, like you know, Tiger Woods or something like that. Like I've never been a fan of I mean it's fun to watch other sports. I just didn't really grow up following it. Um and like there are cool people, cool athletes, good quotes, and stuff like that. But yeah, I can't I don't have a good like answer for like who, you know, what like popular athletes I look up to as much.
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. I thought you would you were gonna tell me you were like a basketball fan or something like that, or or just like some some like I don't know, random sport. Because I don't a lot of your mindset just like reminds me like very much of just like some of the professional athletes that you hear you hear talk. So yeah, it's interesting. Um, dude, where
Upcoming Races And Loving Gnarly Conditions
SPEAKER_01are we gonna see you next? Are you gonna be a broken arrow? Or where what's the uh what's the plans?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, doing broken arrow 23k, which is gonna be so fun. Stoked for that one. Love that race. Um, and then more golden trails, so Quebec Mega Trail after that, and then I'll go back over to Europe and do Pitts Alpine in Austria and Sierra Zenal for the Golden Trail season. And then I'm signing up for ETC as well. So that's kind of the main season before the Golden Trail final. That's the point. So some lot of good stuff. Every race is like one to be stoked for, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, dude. I mean, I think Pitts Alpine, it seems like these technical, I mean, I don't know, man. You've had great success the series and all too. So it's hard for me to point to like one thing, like, oh, that's your strength because you're very well rounded. Um, but it seems like these like technical, muddy, nasty courses like you just seem to thrive in, which is kind of kind of cool. I don't know. Like that's that's a good MO to have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for whatever reason, you know, so far with the small-ish sample size of races that I have, you know, those have have been my best performances. So I don't know why that is, but I do enjoy the technical running and like the mud and when the conditions are gnarly. Like I like the moments where you're out there and it's you know, at Zugama, there was this one pitch where it's like 20% grade, full grass that just turned into a mud slick, and it was like 50 people just f like everyone falls. It's literally impossible to like stay on your feet because there's you're just sliding down. And I was just looking around, like as I was like sliding on my butt down this thing, and it's like this is like hilarious right now. Like we're we're at this high-level race with like Killian Journey and all these guys, and we're all just like rolling around in the mud right now. Like, um, so I enjoy moments like that where you it's just kind of funny to like how gnarly the conditions are. Um and yeah, technical stuff like that, you know, it kind of distracts you from the pain of running itself, you know. On a super runnable course, you're just like hammering the whole time, and like all you have to focus on is like you know, fighting through the fatigue and like trying to stay on the pace and everything. But in a race like Muddy Zagama this year, it's like there were long stretches where you're focused on just trying to like survive and not slip and hit your head on a rock, you know, and you're not even thinking about how fatigued you are. So I think, you know, mentally I kind of enjoy races like that where you know you have to shift your focus between like trying to move efficiently as fast as you can, but also um, you know, like managing the technical component of it.
SPEAKER_01This is like a side a side question, but like did you have any flashbacks of like last year's Senep? Because I guess that was kind of muddy and nasty and technical too, right?
SPEAKER_00Totally. Yeah, there were definitely similar conditions. Um yeah, I mean, like you're run through these like grassy, muddy patches where the mud's like almost up to your knees in spots, which is just so brutal. And yeah, like the steep, slippery pitches, pretty similar to Sunopee. Obviously, Sunape's a shorter race, so there was like a higher level of aggression somewhat. Um, but yeah, it was almost like if you just ran like eight laps on Sun P, you know, it would have been not that different of an experience from Zagama.
SPEAKER_01That's crazy. Um, well, dude, thank you so much for your time. I
Final Thoughts And Where To Follow
SPEAKER_01this was a great conversation. I'm so happy that we got to talk about this and uh recap this really special moment for you. Um any closing thoughts or are you uh are you good?
SPEAKER_00I think I'm all good. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Super fun to chat.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, dude. This will be uh we'll chat a bunch this summer. This will be a good one. Awesome. Um yeah, looking forward to seeing I'll see you at Broken Arrow. Um yeah, it'll be fun to catch up and and uh yeah, dude. Congratulations and thanks again.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, man. Yeah, I'll talk to you soon.
SPEAKER_01What'd you guys think? Oh man, what a fun episode. Dude, what a what a cool thing that Taylor has accomplished and is in the process of accomplishing. Um, I truly believe, especially as an athlete in the sport and as someone that is just an absolute nerd of the sport, um, I think it takes something very special to be able to compete at the highest level of these races. It's a lot more than just talent. There's a lot of hard work that goes into it. There's so much, you know, smart and wise training. And then I think, and something we talked about in this episode, dude, it's what's between the ears. And Taylor just has a very, very, very um, just has it together, has it all these this combination and of these things. And I think it's gonna take him a lot of places and just very far in our sport. Um, and I cannot wait to see what happens. So, guys, you need to follow along. You can find him on Instagram. It's gonna be at stack underscore tailor. It's gonna be linked in the show notes. If you don't already follow Taylor, give him a follow, give him some support. Um, you know, he's it's definitely gonna be fun to follow the ride over the next few years as this guy becomes uh our next great American champion. So uh thanks for tuning in. Some more episodes coming out. I've got an awesome one with Simon Kearns dropping tomorrow as well. Uh Simon just set the record on Mount Rainier, uh, something you guys might have been following. And uh, you know, some episodes next week. So good stuff coming down the pipeline. Uh one of these days I'm gonna start teeing some stuff up for uh Son of Pea Scramble, the US Mountain Running Champs, which is in just two weeks. So I gotta get moving on that. And uh yeah, all kinds of good stuff coming down the pipeline. Thanks for tuning in.
