#182 - Marshall Graybill

You can learn a lot about mountain running by talking to someone who didn’t grow up logging endless run miles. Marshall Graybill comes to the sport through cycling and ski mountaineering, with all the fitness those sports build and all the baggage they can bring, too. We get honest about what it feels like to line up for a race after crashes and concussions, how fear shows up in specific scenarios, and why trail running can feel like a mental reset compared to crit racing chaos. 

Marshall also lives a double life that a lot of driven athletes will recognize: he’s deep into a PhD focused on underwater robotics, studying alternative propulsion inspired by marine organisms. That time pressure forces a different training mindset, and we talk about how to stay competitive with shorter, harder sessions, how to avoid the Strava comparison trap, and how to pick races that fit real life. If you’re chasing endurance performance with limited hours, this one is packed with relatable strategy. 

We also swap stories from skimo culture in Colorado, the intensity of local “world cup” style races, and the frustrating reality of canceled events and narrow qualification paths now that skimo is an Olympic sport. Then we jump to Marshall’s surprise 25K win at the Waterville Trail Running Festival in Ireland, where navigation, farm crossings, and under-flagged trails turn a race into a problem-solving mission. We wrap with Broken Arrow plans, pacing lessons at altitude, and why the community keeps bringing him back. 

If you enjoy conversations on trail running, mountain running, skimo training, altitude racing, and balancing sport with a demanding career, subscribe, share this with a training partner, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Marshall’s Recent Results

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. I'm your gracious host, James Lauri, just filled with a uh lot of love from the Broken Arrow weekend. I am fresh off the plane and uh so stoked to uh to introduce this episode and our next guest, Marshall Graybill is on the show. Marshall just competed this past weekend at the Broken Arrow Ascent in 23K, having some great results and really coming into his own as a mountain runner. On top of that, Marshall's had some great finishes of the Cirque series, a basin race, the Telluride Mountain Run, where he took the win at the 13 mile last year, amongst many other races, including ski mountaineering, where uh Marshall uh is also fairly dominant. He comes from a cycling background. We had a lot of good conversation in this episode about the cycling and uh kind of transitioning that. Um Marshall's grown up with mountain running. His mother, Kay Graybill, was a member of the 1996 uh world mountain running team for the U.S. I didn't even know there was a team in 1996. That's bananas. So lots of history in Marshall's uh lineage, if you will. So it was great getting to catch up with him uh and chat all things. And uh yeah, just super appreciative to have him on the show. So without further ado, Mr. Marshall Graybill.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Hey now. This is the Steep Stuff podcast.

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SPEAKER_03 1:27

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Underwater Robotics PhD Explained

SPEAKER_03 2:12

All right, Marshall Graybill, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, man?

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Great, happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yeah, excited to chat with you. You came on, uh, obviously you've been on my radar for a bit, but uh not so long ago, you took the win at the Waterville Trail Running Festival 25K in Ireland, and I was like, oh, it's a great opportunity to finally have a chat with you, have you on the podcast for a conversation? So very excited to chat and uh roll into things, man. How's how's the day going so far?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Good. This is a fun switch from having a lab meeting talking about my research to talking about trail running.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

So what do you do? Are you I mean, I looked in my research, I saw you were an engineer, but are you like more of an academic engineer? Like what do you specifically do?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

I'm in my third year of my PhD researching underwater uh robotics, basically inspired by different marine organisms.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

Very cool. Yeah, my uh undergraduate university that I went to was very big in uh or I guess it was oceanic engineering. That was like the aspect of it. Uh and I was always like would meet guys and meet people that were in kind of in that program. And some of the research was like super interesting, dude. There's a lot of like cool stuff. Like, what is your I guess your thesis? Like, what is it specifically kind of into and on?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Uh mainly looking at alternative forms of propulsion, um, so such as using fins for propulsion as opposed to propellers for more efficient mobility underwater. Um yeah, things inspired by turtles and penguins and sharks and for more improved efficiency as well.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

So that's so interesting. How did you get into that? Was it like something you were interested in from like undergrad on?

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Or like how did you find a lot of that? Uh I guess for two years after I worked in robotics, and this is kind of like a sidestep into a different stream of robotics. And uh my advisor was joining CU at the time, and I was looking for advisors, it sounded pretty interesting. Um kind of dove right in. So very cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

So when you graduate, are you gonna like strap bombs on dolphins and stuff like that? I'm just kidding. Or build some crazy shit like for the Navy. Probably not. Yeah. Uh that's crazy. Well, very excited to chat more on that. I'd say first and foremost, uh, you know, obviously this is a trail running podcast and super excited to chat. So maybe start a little bit with your background and kind of how you found sport. Um, I also do want to talk about your dad uh and his involvement like in mountain running as well, but I'd say first and foremost, let's talk about you.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Yeah, well, probably more my mom than anything.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

But so I thought I don't know why I thought it was your dad. Like I read it was uh K-gray Bill. Is that your mom then? That's my mom, yeah. That is your mom. So your mom was on the 96 uh mountain running team then in

Asthma And A Late Start Running

SPEAKER_03 5:05

in Austria. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah, but growing up, I guess, preactive lifestyle, growing up in Colorado and um choosing not to run, uh, mainly because uh I don't know, growing up with asthma and every time I ran, I felt like it kind of provoked that and um was an uncomfortable sport. So I started with bike racing pretty young, um, did that through high school, mountain bike racing and road bike racing, and then did that through college until COVID hit, and then because COVID hit, um CEU was kind of shut down. It was a club sport here, and we weren't allowed to compete together, we weren't allowed to go races, do any racing, and um that's when I learned about ski mountaineering and did that for the whole winter of 2020 or 2021. Um and that was a good intro into the world of more mountain sports as opposed to just road bike racing, because I was always on the roads um for the bike side. And and yeah, I saw that a lot of people were cross-training for yeah, some people I like was looking up to. Uh I'm not sure if you know Sean Van Horn. He was one of the guys I was skiing with a bit, and um saw that he was doing all this running stuff and got into that a bit. Um, it was a slow process though, because I would I came from I had a Strava goal for running per year of one mile, and sometimes it wasn't completed. Uh, so it was a weird transition where my body was not holding up well. Um Andy Wacker once referred to me as like a high school boy because I was getting chin splints and all these like weird intro running issues. Um finally grew out of the shin splints, but still like can't keep the mileage as someone who probably raced through college.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Interesting, man. How how did you overcome the asthma? How were you able to kind of get through that? Especially, you know, one through bike, bike racing, and then transitioning to something more obviously like schemo, where you know it's a lot of uphill work, you know, you're using the lungs quite a bit more at high altitude. How are you able to overcome that?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, I feel like some of it is just strengthening over time, um, pacing when you get into the sport. Uh the biggest hit is always in the first couple steps, really, when your body is adapting to breathing a bit harder. Um and sometimes it's like using one puff of an inhaler just to get over that first hurdle. Uh, but it's gotten a lot better. It got to the point where in bike racing I could basically never take an inhaler, and then um in running it's like more occasionally, and it's usually at the start if I have to. Um but just being comfortable with that, and I never like opted into one of the uh steroid inhalers, nothing against them. They're just it seemed a little bit more intense. And I was like, I don't want to use a medication, I don't have to just because of a sport.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

But gotcha. Do you use like uh uh like one of these things for like uh I I use this all the time for like intercostal muscles and like strengthening lungs and stuff like that for heavy breathing. Um I've heard it works amazing. I actually got that from Kieran Nay. Uh but yeah, do you do stuff like that for asthma? Because I used to I had asthma when I was like a young kid and feel like I kind of grew out of it and never really bothered me after that.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

No, I mean haven't really done anything for it. The biggest thing is like getting rid of pets in my life. That was a big factor as well.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

I was definitely allergic to horses and cats.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Like that. Uh still when you're like this baseline level of inflammation and then stepping into running, I think that's always a hard step as well. I grew up with a rabbit

What Actually Helped His Breathing

SPEAKER_00 9:20

in the house and found out eventually that my dad and I were pretty allergic to it.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

So talk to me, uh talk to me about bike racing, man. Did you have um obviously, especially growing up in Colorado and getting into anything that's competitive, uh the levels always higher here, it seems like. Um, did you have like super competitive aspirations on the bike? Was it more of just a hobby and doing it for fun? Kind of talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, I mean, getting into it, I knew immediately that I wanted to race road as opposed to mountain. Um, but my high school team was a mountain bike team, and we had to do a sport in our high school. So I had to race mountain biking. Uh, and then I could do like road to supplement it on the side, and then race road in the summer. And we were kind of in the middle of nowhere, Colorado speaking, because all of the racing was happening on the front range, and I was growing up in Carbondale, and but there was a really good bike racing series up in Aspen. Um, and that's a weekly series. Every other week it's road bike, every other week it's mountain bike, and that was a really good way to step into the sport. Uh good mentors. There weren't a lot of younger racers, so I was usually riding with like my friends' dads and stuff, um, and coming up to the front rage occasionally, and then started

Crit Racing Danger And Concussions

SPEAKER_00 10:45

racing a lot more in college where it was more a weekly thing, uh, and got into crit racing because that became the main option, uh, especially after COVID. Lots of the major bike races in Colorado were getting canceled and kind of replaced with crit races or gravel races because it was just easier to put on and never really picked up a gravel bike. Um, picked up biking or running before I picked up a gravel bike. And uh crit racing just got a little too dangerous for me after a couple concussions. Um but I mean pushed it until I was a cat one and yeah, like going into the COVID year for my for the CU team, I was looking at kind of being more the sprinter or like the punchy guy, um, which was always a weird transition because I feel like I had the build for going up mountains, but at the same time sprinting was like always my weird niche. So interesting.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

What did you prefer more? Were you more of a did you like climbing better? I even though I mean maybe you were more naturally gifted that versus like sprinting or vice versa. Uh what did you like, what do you prefer? I'm like deep into Tour de France Unchained right now. I probably re-watch it like two or three times a year. So that's uh I'm like very hooked on on bike racing right now.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah. Uh most of my workouts were always going uphills. I mean, still I supplement with a lot of biking just because I can't hold up to high mileage running yet. And I would just do those as workouts, and then the 15, 20 second power sort of just came naturally with minimal working out on it. So it's like I could get over the climb, and then if it was a two-minute climb or a 30-second sprint at the top, like I was the guy for that on the team. Um, but then the COVID season hit, and like that was my best season as far as like fitness going in, and never really got to try that. But after COVID, I was current racing like three times a week and kind of like my team sprinter there as well. Next to like these big guys that have massive legs, and I was I don't know, 140-pound lightweight climber trying to go against them.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

So interesting. Yeah, it's funny how much like body composition and type matters for cycling. Like it's such a different. I mean, obviously you could say the same thing for running, but like I feel like runners, some of them are kind of short, some of them are kind of tall. It doesn't really matter as much. Uh, but in cycling, it seems like it matters significantly more for if there's like a very specific build.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah, and for curr racing, like so many of the guys are either more daring than me or bigger and like they lean into you, and you just have to back out.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

So it's very physical. That's that see, that's stressful.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

It's getting physical for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Interesting. All right, let's let's talk about your upbringing. Obviously, you said you're grew up in Carbondale in the Roaring Fork Valley. Um, love that area. I have family there. Uh talk a little bit about like you know your upbringing and and why maybe running just wasn't a big thing for you, especially with your mom like being on the 96 U.S. Mountain Running Championship team. That's that's crazy. Uh, it's really interesting too. I think you might be the first person besides maybe Hawk Call on the podcast, whose like parent was like a very serious athlete in in you know either that our sport or an adjacent sport.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, for sure. I feel like I was thrown into doing a lot of outdoor things. Uh as a family, we mainly climbed a lot when I was younger. So my dad set a lot of routes up around Bale, and that was his thing, and then my mom's thing was more running, and then they both did a bit of cycling and such as well. Uh also grew up skiing, but never really took on to any sport to be honest. Um, tried out soccer, tried out lacrosse. Uh was decent running in lacrosse, but didn't yeah, didn't really pick anything up. I was a pretty scrawny little kid. I liked we did some competitions with my school, but it was like a pretty small school, so we had some sprints and like went to one track meet every year in middle school, and I did like the hundred-meter sprint and the long jump, but we didn't have any training for the long jump. We were jumping in like a sandbox and trying to measure it out with rulers and stuff. Um, so I guess, yeah, not terribly active, but more just active in like a non-stressful way where you're out exploring the mountains and you're not really thinking of a sport or competition.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

How how stoked was your mom when you talked to her, told her you were getting into this trail and mountain running thing? Like, is that just a very natural type of thing? Like, how how did that kind of go over in the house?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I think she's happy that I picked a sport where you just need a pair of shoes. That's fair.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

That's fair. Well, cycling is also super dangerous, man. If you crash, you get messed up. Uh, so I guess there's there's that aspect too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, I think they still worry about me quite a bit, especially with schemo and cycling. And um I've definitely gotten to the point where like mentally lining up for a cycling race, I don't think I can do it again. Uh, just because I know I think the last race that I did, I crashed out and it was the little tin twilight crit, and my tire rolled off the rim and the rim shattered. And it's like I I might be over this. Like, I was getting into running then and probably like a

Growing Up Outdoors In Colorado

SPEAKER_00 16:50

year and just seeing how that could go. And I mean, it's a slower progression, starting a new sport in your 20s, but talk about the like the mental component of that.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

I mean, or maybe unpack it a little bit more because it seems like for cycling, the mental aspect of it is is so important in addition to the physical aspect and then the technical aspect of the gear itself. Um, and trying to put all that together, uh, I feel like is just I don't I don't think people understand how difficult cycling can be, is what I'm trying to say. So, how important is that mental aspect and kind of maybe rolling that into your running game and just running in general?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, I think the big thing with biking was always when I had a crash in a certain scenario, then when that scenario arose again, I was a little bit more timid. For example, in Boulder, we have some crazy winds. So one day I got picked up off my bike and thrown and got concussed. And that was in college and biked back home, walked into one of my uh a professor was doing a little class before an exam that night, and it was like bleeding, and I was like, Can I get out of this exam? Like, I think I need to go to the emergency room. I don't think I need to go to an exam room right now. Um, but then after that, for a while, like anytime there was a gust of wind, I was kind of like, I'm stepping off my bike. And then that happened with like I had a crash sprinting, and now I'm a little timid about like what if my cleat comes out against while sprinting and I go over the handlebars again for that. And um then having some crashes and packs where other people are taking you down, and that's where over time you're just like looking at everyone who's gonna cross a wheel in front of you who's not necessarily gonna take you down, but it's gonna take someone else around you down, and that's where running is great because I I don't know, you can get tripped up, but the whole pack isn't coming down, and it's nice to only think about other issues like let's make sure my stomach feels good on this race, let's make sure we're fueling correctly to not cramp up. Let's push on the descents, but like within reason, at least things are coming at you a lot slower than mountain bike racing and road bike racing or schema where you're in trees and everything and you're going 40 miles an hour. Running, you're at least like you can see the tree coming for a while, you can see the rock coming for a while, and it becomes more of a game set game of how to optimize around like very controllable factors, um, which is stressful in its own way because you start to overanalyze like everything that you did leading up to the race or if you did enough prep. Um so

Risk Tolerance From Bikes To Trails

SPEAKER_00 19:45

definitely stress either way going into a race.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

But does that timidness for you from the bike carry over into schemo for like when you're going hardcore at a race like downhill skiing?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Oh yeah. I've had some fun tumbles. Uh one race this year at Eldora ended, it was four inches of fresh, like kind of thicker snow, caught an edge and went sliding for like a hundred feet. It broke my binding, cracked my boot, broke my pole, and it was like a little local race. And I got up and ran to the finish line. But um yeah, really small things can catch you off guard with schemo, at least in that sport. Usually you pick yourself up and you can like walk to the finish line and you're not scarred all over the place. Um but in trees and stuff, I definitely restrain myself until someone else is around me, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna give in a little bit and push it.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

But I like that. Talk about schemo and its influence on you, man. Like, especially being in Boulder. I love the infrastructure kind of Davide has put in place uh with Boulder Schemo and just having that program and and uh I it seems like he's got a great like contingent of athletes that show up to these like Eldora races and then A Basin and some of the other ones. Um maybe just talk about that influence on you and just how important that is to that, you know, the community.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah, for sure. So starting Schemo uh in Carbondale, it was always the sunlight community. And there's a guy, Travis, out there, that kind of like runs all the sunlight races, and there's a great moonlight series, so you're racing at night, and that was my intro. And then the Heathen Challenge was the other first race I ever did. And if you don't know the background behind that race, you go backcountry at Sunlight Ski Resort, and there's a bunch of little twigs and stuff. So there's a lot of things trying to take you down, and it's all breakable crusts. And with the tiny skis and little carbon boots that you're on, you don't really have any control, and you're kind of straight lining through these thick trees with everything trying to take you down and make you cartwheel. Um, so that was my Intro and it was a terrible first experience. Love the race, but you need to know what you're doing going into that race for sure. And then yeah, moving out to Boulder more permanently again after COVID. It was definitely a learning curve, like figuring out where to go. There's spots that locals kind of keep secret, and there's spots that just if it doesn't snow like this past winter, you're only up at Eldora and you're doing six laps a day, and it gets really tedious. So the community really helps and building up towards races really helps. Unfortunately, this year, lots of the races that I was like that were my objectives were either canceled or one of them

Skimo Community And Eldora Laps

SPEAKER_00 22:50

I was a little rattled up for, so I didn't end up going. Um it was after that crash, and I was like, I have whiplash and I'm gonna play it safe. But yeah, David and like building out the morning races again, it has been huge because over a hundred people show up to those and we call them our local world world cups, and like the competition is immense for something so small and local, um, where it's more competitive than lots of the uh like other Colorado races. Um even though it's 20 minutes, 30 minutes long.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Well, it's crazy because you get like, I mean, Boulder's full of freak athletes. Like Davide is an insane athlete in his own right, and quite a few of those guys, including yourself, like it's it makes a pretty fun to follow uh like front pack for some of these races. So it's neat where you get what less than 100 people in some of these races, and they turn out to be there's world-class athletes, like one through 20 in them sometimes. It's kind of nuts.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, and for those races, they finally started adding gates because the first couple I did, we were just straight lines straight down like the gut of Eldora. And I have a couple recorded times or or recorded speeds are over like 70, 72 miles an hour. Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

Yeah, it's you know, for the schema aspect, I've live in the springs and train out of there, and it's for me, it's like hard over the winter because I just don't feel like driving two hours or really like the the ski scene in on like maybe the greater Pikes Peak area is just not that great, right? So it's a two-hour drive generally for anything solid, and I just can't bring myself to to do that over the winter. It's just a lot more. Whereas like having access like Eldora is really like clutch to have that right more or less like in your own backyard. That's not that far from Boulder.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Yeah, it's still the mental game of I guess I get bored of doing the same laps over and over. So definitely got burnt out on scheme this year. Looking forward to hopefully having better snow year and more options around here. Um, but yeah, the uphill policy there, they definitely expand it as much as they can. I mean, obviously it's a little limited on the weekends and outside of hours, and that's all just safety concerns. So really appreciate like the work that they're putting in.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

How many hours a year would you say, like on average, that you uh put in as far as dedication to like schemo on a good year?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

On a no idea. It's all around, especially with the PhD, it screws things up. And I tend to go for faster, harder sessions rather than like long endurance because like this year I was trying to train for the sprint effort in schemo, so maybe like 150 hours on the snow. Um the first year I jumped in more as like an endurance approach and like did um an Ever Sing by myself at Sunlight, for example, and just did laps there for 12 hours. Um and I don't think I want to do that again.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

So I don't blame you. It's a long time to be out there. Did you so you said you were training for the sprint discipline? Did you go and compete then at um oh what was the race that was in the Wasatch? Uh in December. Powder keg? Yeah, powder keg.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah, so oh, in December.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Yeah, there was one that where Cam and Anna qualified for the Olympics. Did you go compete at that one? I can't remember the one off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

No, that was the World Cup. And last year I got fourth in the sprint in nationals. Um, and they took the top three men and the top four women, so didn't make it.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

So close, though, man.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

That's amazing how close you are. Um, so I was kind of shooting for that again, and then Powder K, which was the Nationals this year, um, I was a little banked up for. And I think it was a little anticlimatic this year, just with lots of the faster racers still in Europe, um, especially after the Olympics. Like I think it's gonna pick up again next year, though.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

Do you have any like goals and aspirations to try and like go, you know, compete for USA schemo and stuff like that in the future?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, I would love to take or go onto the national team. Um with the regulations around it being an Olympic sport now, it's a lot more bureaucratic, and how to get on the team is a bit harder, especially like if you're not currently on the team, there's very few spots and opportunities to qualify. Uh, this year was a really good example for if you're trying to go for the spring discipline because there was one national cup race at uh Winter Park, and that happened. There were only like three senior men, it was mainly a big contingent of juniors, and then Wasatch Powder Keg and

Sprint Skimo Goals And Team Paths

SPEAKER_00 28:00

the two other sanctioned races that were gonna happen were canceled. So I trained all winter for the sprint and did one sprint all winter.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Heartbreak, man. Heartbreak. Does it transition well for something because uh we all know the vertical transition is great for uh trail running? Does I would imagine the sprint does as well transition great for you're just aerobic engine in general for trail running, correct?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's a faster effort, probably translates a bit better to VKs or something like that, but I'm still training for individuals in the meantime. I mean, I the sprint effort just means that I do a couple weird workouts where people might see me putting my skis on and off a lot at the base of Eldora as opposed to just doing a lot of laps. Um, but it's all exhausting and it keeps your lungs in shape and you you definitely jump into the summer sports looking at your heart rate, and you're like, this is actually a pretty easy effort in comparison.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah, no, that's very true. Do you have any like uh aspirations and plans to do like some of those larger stage races like Piramenta and things like that?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

I have time. I think that's mainly how I look at it because a lot lots of the guys like are doing it and they're 10 years older than me, and that's kind of where they're peaking. And um I don't think there's any rush to jump into it. Um especially with the school thing, it does limit in the winter. Uh I was taking classes up until this past year or so. Hard a little harder to travel.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

Fair enough. How much more time do you think you have left for school? I mean, usually PhD programs are what, like three to seven years, somewhere in that range. Just depends. Yeah, it'll be about five years. Okay. So you got a few more years left. Oh, I mean, dude, it's kind of fun being a student still. You get to play around in in boulder and you know, obviously, I don't know, it's just it's just a different life. I feel like being on campus probably is a lot of fun or more enjoyable than like sitting in a cubicle.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah. You can have some flexibility. You can like work at night and get something in during the day, and uh you have that balance. Um, there's a lot of professional athletes to definitely pull off being a PhD student and being an athlete. I think what helps there is some team support um for traveling and stuff. So I try to keep it a lot more local and just pick some objective races to shoot for.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Yeah. It's funny. I've had a few PhD candidates on on the podcast lately. Like Christina Randrup, who is at the University of Washington, she was just on. Um similar photos, well, more oceanography, more like ecology and stuff like that, so different. But uh yeah, a lot of water people, but interesting.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah, I didn't even choose the water thing necessarily.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Um all right, talk to me about I'm gonna transition back to the

Ireland 25K Win And Navigation Chaos

SPEAKER_03 30:55

trail running. You had this big win at the Waterville Trail Running Festival uh in Ireland. Talk about this race, man. Was this your first international race? And uh yeah, give me the lowdown on it as far as this Waterville race.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yeah, I guess third international race. I've done the double VK up in Cormaill.

unknown 31:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Um, and then I did one last summer in Quebec out on a peninsula, um, which was similar to the Waterville, where it was also around like 25k distance. Uh Waterville was not a race that was like something I was planning. We were out there on a trip, and beforehand, my dad said this is a pretty good place to run in Ireland, and you should see if anything's happening. And the day that we were there was their major race out. So, yeah, the race uh coordinator helped me out and um ended up racing and felt terrible leading up to it. I think international travel and uh be being like the D D and learning how to uh drive on the right or left hand side of the road for my parents the whole time was a little stressful.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Uh all right, so the effort felt terrible. So no taper, nothing like that. You just kind of walked into this and you're like, let's give it a go. Were you even tested, or were you just fit enough and just got away from people and kind of ran your own race to the finish?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

I think definitely had a taper, at least, because it was like halfway through my trip. Okay. So I was just trying everything I could to feel a little bit better. Um yeah, taking baths, soaking, I don't know. Uh rolling out and doing little runs. And yeah, the race started out on road. Um a good percentage of the race was on road, maybe like 40% was on road. And yeah, two miles-ish on road. That we had a big pack, and then uh we had a small trail section. I realized how quickly it kind of like spread everyone out. So as soon as it went back to the road, uh went to the front when I knew there was another trail section coming up, and uh there's these styles. I had to look this up. Uh they're basically ladders that go up and down over all the pastures, and it's just to get over the fences, and then other on the other side there's sheep or cows, and hit the first one of those, made up like 10 seconds and kind of got a gap there, and then every time I was able to do that, kind of jump off the backside, I was able to make up more space until I couldn't see the rest of the group. And I it was pretty fun and unique experience because well, there was a lot of required equipment, and lots of it we didn't need, especially for that short of a race. Like didn't end up using Rainjack or anything when we had a vest for a two-hour race, but uh you had to bring a map, and you could either bring a paper map or you had to upload it to your watch. And so the night before I figured out how to upload it to my watch and the whole race, you're looking at your wrists because there was one flag on the whole race.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Oh, dude, that's terrible. That's rough. Okay. I mean, it's like it's like mini-orienteering in a way.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

In a way, you're like following known trails, and like if you were a local, you definitely knew where to go. But there were some spots. There was one spot where there was a barn and the tractor, and you were running through this guy's farm, and you had to run like 18 inches between the two, and that was your trail. I was like, is this the trail? Um, and then afterwards, you're running by the cows and stuff, and then jumping over another style. And yeah, I think the only time I was concerned about animals though, was there was this big sheep on the way back, and it had horns and it was standing right in the middle of the trail. And I was like, I don't know when these things charge. I'm coming at it from behind, and I'm like running at this thing. Very happy it did not charge or run at me. Um, but yeah, you unique experience, uh technical in its own way, like some wet grass and lots of mud and stuff, but uh really beautiful backside where we came down to it goes over like a little pass, and then we came down to the beach front, and you're running along like these rocky areas where there's all these carved and laid stone for the steps, so you're just doing steps up, steps down, and just kind of curving around until you hit the road again, and then it kind of lollipops back up. Um, but the true heroes are the guys that start, they also have a 130-kilometer race that starts that evening and it basically ends in the morning, so they just run the whole thing at night.

SPEAKER_03 36:22

Oh, it's horrible. That sounds so rough. What uh what is the scene like over there? I mean, they must have been enamored by like this guy from Boulder, Colorado, because everybody hears on you know from the media perspective, like Boulder Colorado is obviously one of the mechas uh of the sport. Is everybody asking you questions? Want to know more about you? Like, how how was the how was it like over there?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I got pulled aside at the start because I found out I had the highest UT and B index there, which has never happened in Boulder, that's for sure. But I don't know, it felt a little awkward being the American. I was also called out at the double VK and Cormaill, where they were like, this guy is the world champion and this American, and I was like, I'm not that fast. It's just like, yeah, you don't know if I'm past it, maybe. But um, so I don't know, from that perspective, it was just they were super welcoming and like definitely told me about a space, and um I think coming into a smaller race that's like very community oriented and like mainly people from Ireland racing it, you just don't want to be like the intruder, like yeah, stepping on people's toes, but they were all so welcoming and it was like really nice, and um following a lot of them on Instagram and Strava now to see where everyone goes, and um, it seems like they have a pretty good running community out there for trail running, and that weekend was huge because it was a bank holiday, so there was some half marathons and other marathons happening in the country as well. So super cool, man.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah, it's uh I gotta imagine like this just the international scene in general and in a different place. Like most people, obviously, everybody's going to race in the Alps or you know, the Dolomites and places like that. Ireland, I think Jackson is the only person I know that's gone to race in Ireland, uh, because there was a uh a world skyrunner race maybe last year. But I I other than that, I haven't heard too many things about the scene, but everything I've heard is that it's a really cool place and it's very unique. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah, and I felt like everyone knew each other, which was pretty fun. Yeah, that's awesome, man.

Broken Arrow Plans And Pacing Advice

SPEAKER_03 38:47

So you're getting ready. We're only a few weeks out or less than that, from uh broken arrow. Uh I saw in your ultra sign up you'll be back at the Ascent in the 23k again. Is that correct, the share? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Yeah, hopefully I don't throw or mess up in the ascent this time.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Oh, what happened? Oh, you got stories. What happened last time? Talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Well, two or three times ago, it went pretty well because I was really excited. Um, I feel like I'm less of a runner out of a runner, you know. So I have the like endurance or strength from cycling and not the speed from running. So we went up during the really snowy year, straight up the cooler. There was like steps in the snow. That was perfect. That was 100% my speed. But the last couple years where it's like more of a winding road, um, I don't know. I get cooked after the first section, and then I'm just breathing too hard. And um, it feels like a good opener for the 23K.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

But I like it. Yeah, something to just blow the doors off and just hope for the best. Dude, I the the start is it gives me anxiety because it's like it's like a mass start. I mean, you obviously you've done it the so up, you know, a bunch of years, but it just like everyone up this like up the ski run, and there's like plants that are people trying to hurdle over, and it's like especially last year, because it was you know, the course was cut short, it made it a little like different, I should say, change things a bit. But yeah, the the start of it is just uh it's mass chaos, dude.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Yeah, it's a little bit of a reminder from the Peppy's face of the GoPro games.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

And it's just a really steep run. And but there you get to break after 300 feet. Whereas here it hits like a steep road and you're like breathing too hard. So I need to take it as the constraint approach and know that I'm probably not getting, you know, near the top five, so don't try to stick with Cam. It's a bad idea. Never stick with Cam on the uphill. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

It's gonna be uh this year's gonna be crazy again. I mean, I feel like every year I say this that it's always the most competitive year, and it gets crazier and crazier as the years go by. Are you more excited for the ascent or are you more excited for uh the 23k?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

23k for sure. Just after my two years of the ascent. Yeah. Um yeah. Which I was a little bit more technical though.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Yeah, I was gonna ask you, what keeps you coming back? Is it is is it just the intrigue of continuing to try and perform and and top your times and get PRs and you know crack that top 15, top 12, like well, you are obviously already cracked the top 20 in the ascent, but just continue to improve on yourself or what's the what's the drive?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Yeah, I think a big part is the community aspect. Um, there's a lot of other races that you're going to go travel out for, and you might have like one or two friends that you know, or um, whereas here, especially over the last two years, so the first year I kind of went out with the normal guys, and that was a really fun experience. Um and then the last two years it's been more with like trail team, or last year I stayed with Sean and Kylie Van Horn, and it's just like a fun event where it feels more like a vacation, and you're hanging out with runner friends, um, and this year, yeah, just hanging out with the trail team folks, and then seeing everyone that you know. And um, there's a lot of people that I feel like I only see once a year, and it's always there. Um, and it's just such it's mainly for the environment that you keep going back, and it is fun to test yourself in a very international field without having to go to Europe as well. Um where we only get a couple opportunities of that every year.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

That's true. I mean, dude, I feel like it's more competitive than a lot of races in Europe now. It is wild how many people are gonna be there. Uh if I mean if people show up healthy, we'll see. But yeah, especially the 23K. It's interesting. I mean, everybody wants that prize purse, so it's interesting we got El Husin back and uh Sarah Alonzo and just a lot of like normal golden trail athletes we see on the scene uh are coming back in pursuit of some some dollars. So it should be fun. For sure, yeah. Looking forward to it. Yeah, I will be there. I'm gonna be uh at the Cetus booth doing podcasts. So that should be talking. Yeah, come say hi.

High Altitude Racing And Cirque Strategy

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Uh what what else are you uh doing this season? You're gonna go like I was really impressed. One of the uh stats that you had was uh your Circ Series A-Basin result from last year. Um, dude, do you just perform really good at high altitude? Like what do you think you've figured out? Because that is a very competitive race, and uh that altitude whoops people's ass. It's very difficult. What do you think you have figured out about that course?

SPEAKER_00 43:34

I was about to say I feel like A-Basin is my worst race ever.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah. No way, dude. That's what I feel like that was one of your I mean, I would take that over the broken arrow result. Even your 2023 broken arrow ascent is legit. Um, and some of your 23Ks have been legit as well. But I think that the A Basin one, that's a like that's a big one for the resume just because of who shows up to that race.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yeah, I always have a terrible. terrible time at A Basin. I don't like whether it's schemo or coming back for the Circ series every year it's the worst climb that I have every year. I love going uphill and I never enjoy that. Is it the altitude you think the high altitude or I think it's a bit of the altitude but then at the same time like I raced Tellyride last year.

SPEAKER_03 44:25

Had a great race.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

That's another one that was a fantastic fantastic that was like smooth, easy breathing the whole time. Um I there is a good chance that I just get like drawn into starting too quickly and pacing myself would probably be a better strategy overall.

SPEAKER_03 44:43

But do those races people go out so stupid fast and then literally within the first like two minutes everybody like half of those people that go out too fast come right back to you because they all went out too hard trying to chase people like Cam and Ace Brown and people like that. So it it there is a strategy to racing the Cirque series races for sure. Where tell your ride, I would say that that climb is probably easier for you probably because you were in the front and you were dictating the pace. And it's also extremely it's what a 4,000 foot climb on a ski road. So it's a little bit uh when you're in control it might not be as I don't know mentally taxing or who knows.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah and mentally it does really help when you can't see anyone and you're just you're in your zone your step you just keep running like that whole strategy for that race was just don't walk a step and then you're you'll be good. So it's impressive.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Well so uh okay so what will you g be going back to this year then? So after Broken Arrow will you go back to TMR or uh maybe yeah honestly I don't even have a plan.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Oh okay I like that okay yeah so I I'd like to do a cirque series and um yeah be maybe Beast of Bear Creek. I was looking at that a little bit but you know flights are tricky this summer expensive trick here than normal so um and I will say like a big factor of last year was traveling around like doing the Quebec race and then coming and doing Broken Arrow and um having a pretty busy fall it did take away from my PhD. So kind of balancing that I mean a big thing right now is I'm trying to publish by the end of this month and that does pull away from the sport a bit. Whereas running's more like my balance and like my mental or helps me be less mentally fatigued. But yeah maybe just see where the rest of the trail team's going and the rest of my friends are going and make more of a trip to kind of take away mental fatigue and um not just be like stressed about traveling. Add it like sprinkle it in and make it a good side. But the other events I always like adding in um are the Vale uphill or the Vale Hill climb and berry picker and like other local races ral sink ramble um those are all hard to beat.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

So I love it man. It's gonna be a good season nonetheless uh yeah super exciting and dude I love the your search for balance man like or being cognizant of trying to keep the balance between your studies and what you do as well as you know trying to sprinkle running in there as as the release and as the fun part which is interesting.

Training With Limited Time In A PhD

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Yeah it's must it must be very difficult trying to maintain the balance between the two yeah it's it's always been a balance I mean in college doing bike racing there were people that were more focused on bike racing than studies and then people more focused on studies than bike racing and there were definitely weeks where I rode an hour and you just have to like not have that nag at you not like look at Strava and compare the number of hours your friends are doing. So started to try to figure out how to optimize performance around um balance and lower time availability. So doing a lot more higher effort training sessions that are maybe a little bit shorter and keeping with the shorter races where I don't need to spend six hours in the mountains where while I love that like it's not realistic every weekend, especially if you're sitting down in the lab maybe for 12 hours on a Sunday you're not going to get that run in in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

So what does your training look like now like on the running side do you do you work with a coach or is it just you coaching yourself?

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Uh it's doing some workouts with the trail team and then really just figuring out how to sprinkle in other efforts and long runs when I can and when I have that availability but yeah the last two or so months it's been a lot of time sitting in the lab and there's really no way to get around that or no way to speed it up. Um so that's been a balance and then I don't know just always trying to figure out how to wake up on time and wake up at I don't know between five and six and make sure to get out before because there's no chance like after a day at school you're gonna come back and you're gonna be ready to run.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Yeah unless you're yeah not at a high level at least like I dude I don't know how I I have so much respect for people that can like work a nine to five job or whatever and like come home at six five or six o'clock at night and then get to the like it's one thing to do an easy run but to hit a workout and then like actually nail that thing I don't know how people do that. Like I I'm a morning guy all the way like I I gotta hit it fresh or else like I'm gonna be just mentally drained by the time the end of the day rolls around.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Yeah I'm terrible at packing lunches too so I'm just cross-eyed when I get back I bike up to my house and I'm that's an achievement itself. I swear the water here is like poisoned as well and just dries out your throat so usually come back dehydrated and really hungry. It's not a good combo.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

It's not a good recipe dude not a good recipe well Marshall thank you so much for coming on the show it was a great conversation uh so nice to finally get to meet you man I hope I see you uh either at Broken Arrow or at one of the Last Prativa group runs this summer um yeah super stoked on your season and everything you've accomplished thus far and uh yeah can't wait to see

Closing Thoughts And Season Ahead

SPEAKER_03 51:00

what's next and and thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah great to meet you thanks for having me on again do you know what I'm saying?