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The Steep Stuff Podcast
Whiteface Skyrace Race Companion
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A 20K with nearly 8,000 feet of climbing shouldn’t exist, and yet Whiteface Sky Race is about to make a whole field of strong runners question their life choices. Steve Taylor joins us from smoky Colorado Springs as we turn our full attention to Whiteface, the opener of the Merrill U.S. Skyrunner Circuit, and one of the steepest, most punishing race profiles you’ll find in the United States. Two loops. A massive early climb that gains about 3,000 feet in 2.5 miles. Long stretches that flirt with 30% to 40% grade. No hiding from it.
We talk through what that terrain demands, from steep hiking strength and leg durability to the psychology of being told to go do it all again for lap two. The Adirondacks and Lake Placid backdrop get their own moment too, because this region’s rugged trails, wet technical footing, and big-mountain feel are exactly why this race belongs on a skyrunning calendar. If you’re the kind of trail runner who loves “kick you in the teeth” courses, Whiteface is the blueprint.
Then we get tactical: Morgan Elliott’s form and résumé, who might hang on early, and the under-the-radar names that could surprise when the grade turns brutal. On the women’s side we spotlight Robin Vierre-Brower, dig into challengers, and talk winning-time expectations. We also look ahead to the season stakes and the Kismet Cliff Run final on September 13 in North Conway, New Hampshire. Subscribe, share this with your mountain running crew, and leave a review. Who’s your podium pick for Whiteface?
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Cetus Insoles Sponsor Break
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Welcome Back And Smoky Colorado
SPEAKER_01Steve Taylor, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How are you, my friend?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing well, obviously. Uh we are out in Colorado Springs. It's a little smoky right now, so we're surviving through that. But uh so far, so good. Just getting to the end of a busy week right before uh the 4th of July weekend with some good racing ahead of us.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I am so excited to chat about the whiteface sky race happening this upcoming Saturday. Before we get started, like I can't believe how smoky it is, dude. Yeah. Did you have any ash fall? We had ash falling over here.
SPEAKER_00No, so I mean up a little further the past, we did not have any ash fall. But um, I'm not surprised to hear that that's the case. Uh I will I I know we're talking about it now. I would have been remiss to not chat about it. So I just want to say my heart goes out to everyone in uh further south, Colorado, uh down in Rye and Beulah. Um Rye is thankfully safe at the moment. Beulah seems to have been surrounded or getting scorched um at some point in the last few days. Um and uh we know my my wife and I know a lot of people that live down there, have lived in that area, um, and our heart goes out to that community because it's never, you know, it's one thing to be safe, it's one thing to be happy and healthy, but it's uh something completely else to lose a community. So I just want to put that out there that um, you know, it we're trying to see if there's ways we can help, but most importantly, we just want to send our hearts out to those people.
Beard Talk And Running Glasses
SPEAKER_00I got a question for you. Are you starting to grow a beard? What a what a 180, bud. Uh not intentionally. I'm just lazy, okay? And thanks for asking about my Amish neck beard. Sorry. Uh just a little comedic relief.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's been it's been a heavy week in Colorado. So, you know, I'm just trying to, you know. I got I got a little got a little Oh yeah, no.
SPEAKER_00I I got a real um actually you're wrong about this vibe to me right now.
SPEAKER_01With the glasses, it I mean, it plays, dude.
SPEAKER_00I know. I mean, I I so I've been talking to my wife. I need to get some uh glasses for running. Um, and I'm I'm thinking about getting transitions, and someone told me not to do that because it might look like uh I couldn't be around a school. So uh I gotta I I gotta be really careful about the design I choose, but the transitions are probably a hard pass, but I think I'm still gonna go for it. I I I think my biggest uh beige flag is I believe I can make transitions work for me. Oh, fair enough. I mean, what are you rocking right now? Those are you could can you run with those?
SPEAKER_01Those no gold framed. You look like you're in the 80s or 70s, though.
SPEAKER_00I I was really inspired by mid-century modern. Okay, that's that's really my overall vibe and aesthetic. Um, no, but I don't run with these. I truly uh I take my glasses off. I will sometimes throw sunglasses on uh if it's not first thing in the morning. But other than that, uh I just kind of go, I mean, my my vision's not so bad that I can't see, it just gets blurry at a distance. So as long as I can see what's up close, that's good. But I do think I I'm looking, I'm eyeballing some uh no pun intended, some umbras um with transitions so that I can wear them through the winter, wear them through the summer, and that way, and I know they won't fall off my face. You gotta protect the eyes, dude. You only get one pair. Oh, yeah, exactly. Well, play card right. Card's right, you only get one pair.
SPEAKER_01You think we'll ever get to the point where like they can like we'll we'll like that advanced with like science and technology.
SPEAKER_00We can there's already eye then eye transplants. Are they really? Yeah, it's not common, but it happens. No way. There are people who are eye donors. I think I'm gonna like that's not now I'm gonna do tonight. Be on YouTube trying to John Mullaney has a whole joke around this, bud.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You from watch his special uh New Intown, uh, and you'll uh you'll get to have a really fun time learning about getting eye transplants and uh uh made-up rom com that he has based around it.
SPEAKER_01All right, fair enough. All right, we are we are we are off the
Whiteface Sky Race Big Picture
SPEAKER_01reservation. We gotta talk about running Whiteface Sky Race this coming weekend, the first stop on the Merrill U.S. Skyrunner Circuit, uh one of four races? Four races. Four races. Oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here, dude. I feel like I've been talking about this for so long now. I kind of broke the news when it first came out. I was so excited that Whiteface was on this, like on the circuit between I've always been kind of eyeing their vertical kilometer and I've known about the mountain race since like 2022, 2023 era when it was um the US Mountain Running Championship a while back for the mountain classic. And so now I think it's only fitting to have a sky race on such a steep and and agonizingly hard
The Brutal Climb And Two Loops
SPEAKER_01course.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think this is gonna take a different skill set from runners because if uh anyone's had the opportunity to take a look at the course profile, the first two and a half miles, you're getting 3,000 feet of climbing. There, there's at least one section where it's a prolonged 40% grade. There is no type of normal training that a person can do. I mean, if we had more runners from Alaska uh coming out to this race, I would say this would be their forte. Um, but this is truly just a straight up race, and you get and people get to do it twice.
SPEAKER_01That's the hard part. I think that's I mean, that was when I, you know, in some of the elite athlete interviews, that was the question I asked. Is like, most of these athletes travel around the world, right? And get to do these like aesthetic point-to-point courses or these aesthetic loops. The two-loop form is not easy. Like that's a that's a bitch, you know, as far as like how that plays into the psyche.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. I there have been several races that I've done. I I did the uh collegiate peaks 50 mile last year, and my fitness wasn't there. I ended up pulling the plug because it's you run counterclockwise and then come back, or you run clockwise and then come back counterclockwise. And I was like, you know what? Once was more than enough for me. Great race. Uh the course was better than I expected, but when you hit that finish line, uh, and then you have someone telling you you have to turn back around, your brain is either really prepared for it or it's like, no, I've done enough for the day. That's a tough course, man.
SPEAKER_01Especially a lot of dirt road steepness in there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's a lot of short, punchy climbs. Uh, I ended up nabbing, I think I I think I was third male at that race, and it was it was a great day, and I was really, really like happy to just get to have a celebration of running, but the the turnaround still still just beat me into submission.
SPEAKER_01This one, I feel like this course, especially having raced out on the east coast last week, and now twice racing on the east coast and getting to see like what some of these like 30 to 30 plus percent ski slopes, like the uh the actual like ski runs going up those, dude. That's a different level of strength it requires. Like I'm pretty good like running on like a like a 15% cat track road. Like I feel like that's my bread and butter. And then you put me on one of those like 30% for 40% ski runs, and I don't even know if I could have like prepared enough on the incline. Yeah. Because it it's that steep, like pretty crazy.
SPEAKER_00And not only that, this is a longer, this is a longer section of 30 to 40% incline than a lot of races are gonna offer. I think it's a round mile of the initial uphill because there's two major climbs throughout the race. One is that 3,000 foot climb, the the other one is about 800 to 900 feet. Um, but overall, there is at least a one mile section of 30 to 40%, and the lead up to that is somewhere between 25 to 30 percent. So you're getting really elongated, super, super steep sections. I was telling you the other week I went out to Taylor Lake with my uh with my family, and I just there's a mountain right by the lake that I couldn't tell you if anyone else has ever done it. I haven't seen it on Strava Heat Maps, I haven't seen any summit uh summit notes anywhere online. It's called Park Cone. Um, there's a reason why no one's done it. Um, it's a mile of 40% uphill grade on off-trail, uh, on off-piece, uh, off-trail type conditions. And these racers are getting that in a race format, which is crazy to me that that's offered to them. 100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh I'm like 50-50. Part of me is like really excited that it's not a whole like ski road race because that would change the dynamic. I think you're only on the ski road for maybe, I don't know, quarter mile to a half mile in the beginning. Um, but I think it just for the dynamics and for what this course is about, I think it's uh they're they're making it definitely this loop is as hard as it possibly can be. So do double that kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I think that there's gonna be a specific type of athlete that's gonna excel here. Obviously, this field isn't as big as we would hope it to be, but at the same time, I think that if this continues to be a race on the series, which I think it deserves to be, I think people could find themselves working their way into a really competitive position if they get really good at steep uphill and some uh somewhat technical downhill. But we're talking real steep uphill.
SPEAKER_01Big time, big time. So for those of you who are interested, the course itself, like I said, is a double loop 20k, so 12.4 miles, 2,407 meters of vertical. This is about 8,000 feet of vertical, closer to nine in some. It depends on what your watch says. So it is absolutely like really hard. That's the best way I can say as far as a two-loop course.
Adirondacks History And Why It Fits
SPEAKER_01The location, dude. What do you think about the location? Have you ever been to the Adirondacks?
SPEAKER_00I have been up there one time, not for any running purposes on a family vacation when I was really young. I have done some running in New York, in the New England area. And if it's anything like that, um, I know that the Adirondacks, they they uh boast having a bunch of, is it 5,000 foot peaks uh over there? I know that's uh in Cal in Colorado, everyone freaks out about 14ers, but it's either 4,000 or 5,000 foot peaks. And all of them are uh some of the most prominent mountains. Um they're they're some of the most prominent mountains east of the Mississippi, but also their prominence uh really uh challenges a lot of the the majority of the mountains, even out here in the mountain west. So the Adirondacks are known for just being exceptionally steep, exceptionally rugged mountains.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I love the Adirondack's have a very special place in my heart. When I first uh started dating my wife, she um uh for work, she was out in the Adirondacks, and I went out there to visit her. And I remember one day she had to work, so I had like a free day. So I'm like, what am I gonna do? Um, you know, me typical, this is before I was Mr. Runner, James. Uh and what do I do? I was like, I'm gonna climb the tallest mountain, Mount Marcy. And dude, I did it in some like some like uh like grocery store sneaker, like Walmart, Walmart Nike.
SPEAKER_00The n the natural grocer's organic shoes.
SPEAKER_01Like like the like some really like throwaway sneakers. I'll never forget this for the rest of my life. And uh some no-trail shoes, none of that. I forget how long it took me to do, but I was just so amazed by the technicality of it. And dude, first of all, it depending on what time you what time of the year you climb it, I think we were out there actually in the July 4th time of the year. And uh usually they get a lot of precipitation. So the trail itself, Mount Marcy specifically, is a river. Oh yeah, it was uh good times, but I uh from there on I was just enamored by the Enaurotics. It it is a one of the coolest places in the country. Um, I'm so excited because a lot of it's wilderness zone, so not a lot of races can be had there. So the fact that like we do have a ski resort kind of in the backdrop of what is like placid, which is has so much historical appeal, uh, given the fact that it was uh played host to the Winter Olympics way back. Um, I just couldn't think of a better place for a New York, upstate New York, uh kick you in the teeth kind of mountain race.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah, and I I do believe they were putting this on some of their promotional material, but I believe it's the uh the largest publicly owned ski area in the country. It is. Yeah, which is it's big. Yeah, that mountain is huge. It's enormous. And looking at it's crazy, there's some pretty spectacular ridgelines on this trail as well. So I think that I think that people who decided to skip over this race uh or decided maybe next year, I think they're gonna be kicking themselves when they see some of the media come out of this race because in natural beauty, this is you can't get any better than this.
SPEAKER_01No, not at all. It's amazing. Uh and you know, I just think the backdrop, everything altogether, I think it makes for just like a good a perfect uh New England slash upstate New York classic. Um did play host to the US Mountain Running Championships. Was it 2022 or 2020? I think it was 2022. Was it 2022? It was the year Tabor Heming and Sofia Lackly. Yeah, and then Morgan Elliott, who's a part of this race this year, was in that race as well, along with Andy Wacker and Eli Hemming. Uh, I think Eli got his first or second title, uh, U.S. Mountain Running Championship title there.
SPEAKER_00So what a place to break in right there. And uh that was probably prior to Tabor and Eli joining up with Solomon. But I again I I think that uh with this being the first race of the season, again, a little bit more sparse of a field than we would have hoped for. This also allows for some new names to show up on our radar that we may not have known about before. And I know we were doing a little research independently on this. Um, I I like to see that there's obviously a really good Northeastern presence here from the racers, but we also have uh some people that are, you know, we're gonna talk about it a little bit more. We got some, we got at least two really big names that are gonna be able to potentially stamp their ticket for later on in the series, but then we get to kind of see what stories unfold beyond that.
SPEAKER_01100%. And I do want to correct myself in that 2022 race, Andy Wacker was the champion. Oh, he was Andy Wacker beat Eli Hemming by uh 10 seconds.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Oh, that's a close one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and Morgan Elliott, who was racing in this race, was third place there. And fourth place is a name you are familiar with, Mr. Mason Copi.
SPEAKER_00I don't know that guy. Yeah. Uh you know, it sounds sounds like an untrustworthy kind of fella. That guy. Don't look, don't leave your keys around him, don't leave your cars unlocked.
SPEAKER_01That's really funny, actually.
SPEAKER_00Mason's like the nicest in the world. Oh, that guy, he stole my radiator.
SPEAKER_01Uh then Ryan Atkins. Do you know where Ryan is? I I've heard the name, yes. Stud. There's not too many like humans all be like, yeah, it's a stud. Ryan Atkins is a stud.
SPEAKER_00He's a he's just exceptionally fit. Every time I see I've seen videos of the guy doing some crazy workouts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, he's like a multidimensional athlete, too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Nice way of saying that he's really built and buff.
SPEAKER_01And you're Jack, dude.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you're you're fantasizing.
SPEAKER_01I mean, dude, listen, yeah, I the guy's cut. Gotta gotta give him gotta give him some dream big James. Dream his flowers. Make sure you tell Rose about that too. His quads aren't as big as mine, though. Uh or maybe they are, I don't know. I've never seen him in person.
Morgan Elliott And Men’s Contenders
SPEAKER_01But anyway, long story short, uh, I do want to talk a little bit about this field. What what names kind of stick out to you? I I think the first and foremost, the biggest name in this race is gonna be Mr. Morgan Elliott.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I completely agree with that. Um, obviously, he has been a mainstay on the Merrill uh International race series. So he is, you know, he's probably one of the best, if not the best, skyrunner that we have currently from the US. Yes. Um, I I think that's pretty fair to say. Uh personally, he has uh I look at a lot of FKTs around uh Colorado, and he just no matter where you're looking across the country, there is a there's a Morgan Elliott FKT that you can find somewhere, especially if it's like 25 miles or less and is above 10,000 feet or is on a lot of exposed ridgeline. The guy just knows how to run really, really steep, really technical, and really hard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's a gamer. Um, and just sit to talk about some of the results he's had this year on the World Skyrunner series. Uh, he was third at the Ford Fugio Sky Race this year, third at the Andes Mountain Sky Race as well, and then sixth at the Ueda Sky Race in Japan. So obviously world-class level of ability that he's bringing to this race. And uh I feel like that's gonna elevate the field in such a big way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there are a few other good names in this, but I think it's really gonna be a matter of who he is going to drag to a strong finish after that, if they can if they can really plug into his performance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, you know, and I talked to Morgan pre-race about this, is you know, it's gotta be hard psychologically because sure, both the mountain race, which is the one loop and the sky race two loops, will go off at the gun will go off at the same time. And there's some speedy guys in the mountain race, like Timmy Parr, who's a legend. I think there'll be some guys that will maybe go with Morgan. Morgan kind of played a coy, like, oh, I'll probably sit back a little bit and see how things unfold. But Morgan's also a gamer and he's also highly competitive. So my curiosity is so like when the first loop is over and those guys are done the race, where will you find yourself? Are you gonna put on a clinic or are you gonna kind of hang back and just kind of do your thing? Because I'll be entirely honest, unless there's like a true challenger to him in this race, maybe someone we've not heard of before, Morgan's gonna find himself alone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think that's really the thing that we are gonna be mindful of. I think this for Morgan seems like a clear path to the final in the US series at the very least.
Series Stakes And Kismet Cliff Final
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, and also you should mention what's on the line here for the for the entrance at this one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, there's gonna be a substantial prize purse at the so from what I understand now, and it's kind of waffed back and forth. Um, I believe we reported on two races that needed to be ran to get into the final. Now I believe it is gonna be one race that needs to be ran to get into the final. The final is gonna be held at the Kismet Cliff race. If you haven't already signed up for that, guys, highly recommend. If you wouldn't mind, can you pull up the specific date for me? Yeah. And I'll go a little bit more into the Kis McCliff run. Klis McCliff run is put on by legendary uh friend of the podcast and uh race director of the Northeast, Mr. Tom Hooper from 603 Endurance and Marathon Sports. And uh it's very fitting for this race to be the final because it is East Coast technical, kick you in your teeth hard. Um, it's also gonna be in North Conway, uh, New Hampshire, which for this time of year, September, October is one of the most beautiful places on earth and it's easy to get into. You fly right into Boston, it's an hour and a half, two hours north uh the way the crow flies, and you are you are there. So if you are looking for a early fall, uh late summer mountain race that's gonna be a final for something like this, do the Kisma Cliff run hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's gonna be going on on September 13th.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you. September the 13th. Um, so yeah, that's right when the leaves start to change. That's the time to be there, dude. The cider donuts. Yeah, you know me. I like to eat. So I'm a I'm a maple donut kind of guy, and that's still a great place to get it. Dude, in North Conway, we got uh, I went hard. I went every night. We were we were actually there a year ago this time, uh, right after Cirque Series Killington, we went straight over to the White Mountains to hang out uh for a couple days and get to see what that was all about. And there's an ice cream spot, like a soft serve ice cream spot in North Conway, and it's it's just maple ice cream. Dude, say less. It was, yeah, it was fire, absolute fire. Like it was it, I I can't remember the name of it. I I'll find it and put it in the show notes. But if you find yourself in North Conway, New Jersey, that or sorry, New Hampshire, that is the place to go.
SPEAKER_00Look, that's the secret to La Sportiva's thickest athlete right here. Maple ice cream, folks. That's right, that's right. Gotta bulk up, dude.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it keeps the quads thick, the booty thicker. Let's gotta do my my Bulgarian squid's both quads, dude. Um where did I go? I'm off on a tangent now. We were we were talking about what was on the line for the athletes. Yes, the prize money. I believe it's 20,000. Let me qu qualify that uh just to make sure. Actually, you're on the website, aren't you? Yes, I am. And we'll get rid of this in post. Kis McCliff run. Sorry, everybody. I'm just qualifying to make sure this is the prize money is correct. Tom Hooper's gonna listen to this and get all upset with me. I don't think he had it in there.
SPEAKER_00And nor does it have it on here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I believe it's 20,000, but I could be wrong. Could be more, could be less. I'm just gonna put that in there and hope for the best.
SPEAKER_00And we can uh cut that silence out.
SPEAKER_01I'm just gonna leave it in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh unfiltered, dude. Um morrow whiteface. I like I said, I think this is a very intriguing race, not to just kind of hop back into uh what we had been talking about, but the fact that this is an amazing major opportunity for athletes. We've got a couple big names in there, but a lot of people no one's ever heard of. So Morgan said this in his pre-race. I I totally agree. Opportunity for someone without a name to start to make their name on the scene.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And we do have some people in this race that could potentially break out and have a really great performance. We also have some people that uh if you look on Ultra Sign up, um, you'll see the name Brian Rasicki. Kind of looks he's from uh South Deerfield, Massachusetts. Um Seems like uh kind of trail running royalty in a sense, has uh around 198 finishes with 125 podiums. Um, multiple time winner of the Vermont 100, has come out here, come out west and uh run the Cheyenne Mountain Trail Race. Um, he is uh 47, which may be the only downside, but I think that's going to be uh I think he's gonna be one of the stronger performers on the day. Um, and it would also be really fun to see somewhat, you know, it as uh Andy Andy Wacker has talked in the past that he should not be continuing to win races as he continues to age. People got to step up and beat him. But I I like seeing people who are in their 40s and 50s still showing the young guns how it's done. 100%. And he's had some good results over the years.
SPEAKER_01For sure. I mean, top tens of the breakneck uh breakneck point trail run, which is in Beacon, New York, very technical Northeast trail race that always takes place late April, early May. Um, great results there. Uh some more breakneck, Ultra Trail Hurricana, where he was uh fourth, and that's a race in Quebec. Um, back in the day, third at the Under Armour Mountain Running Series in Killington. There was a 50k race 2018. If I remember correctly, Cody Reed was in that race.
SPEAKER_00Oh, seriously?
SPEAKER_01Man, that's a name I haven't heard in a while. Yeah, shot. That's a deep cut. Throwback to Coco Nino Cowboy right there. Yeah. And then, like you said, a bunch of Vermont one, like traditionally more of an ultra runner.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I don't know. We'll see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. I I think I I think he's done a lot of running, and uh he's also done a lot of variety of running. He's traditionally, like we said, done a lot of ultra running and been pretty successful across the board in that. But there's some fast 50Ks in there, there's some fast mountain running in there, and he's obviously really you. I mean, I challenge anyone who's listening to this podcast to find an East Coast race that man has not done.
SPEAKER_01That's very true.
SPEAKER_00But uh another name to kind of take a look at um uh Dawson Adams, young guy, uh in it, he's 27. He's uh run Sun of Peace Scramble and uh Loon Mountain Race, and he's done pretty strong there. Even this past year, he ran a 131. Um, you know, he obviously that didn't place him in the upper upper echelon, but that is that was the US championships. Yeah, it's pretty 25th is perfect. There was some stout, there's some stout racing there. And obviously, this person has the uh or Dawson has the leg speed, but my question for a lot of these people are are they gonna be able to be successful on that 40% incline?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, 100%. And I think this guy does have the chops to be able to mix it up. I mean, if you could do well on a Chris like Sun of P that's gonna be yeah, quite steep and quite technical, especially on that second loop. Absolutely. Um, I think there's gonna be he'll be a pig in shit. He'll probably really he'll probably super enjoy it. I mean, he was 25th at Sun and P. I mean, obviously it's not the the tippy point of the sphere, but still good enough, in my opinion. He'll be in the top, easily the top 10 of this race, probably top five, and definitely compete for the podium.
SPEAKER_00Oh, absolutely. Uh there's a name that I hadn't taken a close look at, but just in terms of I know that this race is actually pretty steep. Um, Jacob Myers, another young, younger guy, 28. Um, he's had a few races on Assault on BlackRock down in uh Silva, North Carolina, which is a pretty steep seven-mile race. He's uh had a he's come in second place there and fifth place there over the uh well, he came in fifth place uh just earlier this year in March. Um that could translate into something that it ends up being a pretty solid uh, you know, pretty solid analogous performance for Whiteface as well. No, 100%. What did you think of the Zachary Smith guy? We were talking about him briefly earlier, and so he's a Colorado boy. Um what I did see is he had he raced earlier, uh he raced at the end of last year out in Duluth, Minnesota, but he does have some historic racing at Tushers and at the Sawatch Ascent. Both of them much longer distance races, uh, Tushers being the 70K and Sawch being the 50K. Uh, but both of those are uh exceptionally steep races. Tushers notoriously so. And so I think that even though it's a longer distance, no one is going to be sprinting up this mountain. If you have the legs to just keep pushing and chugging, I think that this might actually be a better translation for overall performance than someone who is maybe just a really good mountain runner.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I could see that. All right. Who else we got in the mix here? So for the 21k race, which was the last iteration of this particular race, which was the double loop, we did have Robert Sherman, who was 10th last year as well in the mix. And it's had some good results here as well. 23rd in the ascent in 2025. That's solid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I would also just say that look, we're we're picking out some names here. Again, there's any number of people who may, you know, there's a few names at the bottom of uh of the sign-up that haven't really run anything yet. And we we may not know some of these people. Who knows if you've been training hard all year? And again, what what we need to remember is double loop course and close to 8,000 feet of climbing in an exceptionally short, you know, just over 12 miles. You know, have you have you been putting in your leg days? Have you been doing your steep hiking? That's the real question here. So I again, I think Morgan Elliott, this is his race to lose at the time being. And then we got to see where the call cards fall after after him, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_01What do you think as far as timing goes for the winning rate, the for the winner? The 21k Mountain uh course record is around 323.41. I would guess Morgan has the ability to go under three hours. I think I think he does too, but does he need to? That's the problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Is anyone gonna be there to push him to that performance? Probably I'm gonna argue probably not. But at the same time, Morgan has the fitness to do something like that. I think if he wants to have a fun day out there and he ends up pushing even slightly, he can go easily under 320. If with competition, I think he can go under three.
SPEAKER_01I mean, his fastest loop is 110.35. Yeah. So you multiply that. I mean, that's that's it's not always one to one, though. Yeah, yeah. Like that, I'd say multiply that times two and then add 20 minutes or something like that, or 10 minutes. I but I don't think he's gonna need to run that fast. So yeah, it's a completely different, uh, just a very different situation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you will.
Women’s Field And Key Matchups
SPEAKER_00But do we want to take a look over at the women's side of things as well? Yes, yes. Shout out to Robin, man.
SPEAKER_01Robin Vier Brower. How was the conversation with her the other day? Awesome, awesome. Today, actually. Oh, today, okay. Yeah, she was kind enough to hop on a call with me while she was sitting at the Detroit airport.
SPEAKER_00What was she doing at the Detroit airport? I know she was racing. Wasn't she racing last weekend? No, she was at layover.
SPEAKER_01So she was flying out from Oregon. Gotcha. Yeah, she lives in in, I think, Bend. Uh so heading on out east, dude.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Again, another name where I think this is her race to lose. Uh, I will say she has been doing flat, you know, admitted on her own Instagram, she's been doing flatter, faster stuff. And I think that's the type of running that she's more used to as well. But I think her fitness is fitness right now, and I think that as long as she is first up the mountain, she'll she's gonna be first back down on both loops.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I'm such a fan of Robin. I mean, not only the fact that she had a seventh place finish this past just not so long ago on a training run at the Gorge Waterfalls 30K, which has turned into an extremely competitive race. Yeah. Um, but her her prowess and pedigree when it comes to the actual skyrunning circuit is amazing. I mean, she's raced world-class races and done very well. 17th at the Haunching Man Sky Race, um, 12th at the Speed Go 28K, 10th at Skyraid, uh, Sky Run De Moore, the Moorens, which is uh the race that's in Ireland. Um, we already said seventh at Gorge Waterfall, and then sixth at the Y East Trailfest 28K, which the year she ran it was actually was quite competitive.
SPEAKER_00That's a resume to be proud of right there. And Robin's a bit. If I even if there were, you know, five times as many women in this race, I I think that that would be enough for me to put her in any podium list right there for this for this race right now. And again, I think there's gonna be a lot of people who are gonna be kicking themselves for not having signed up for this because it's a good opportunity, but it is it's also gonna be a great race. But especially on the women's side, there's a lot of opportunity over here. No, 100%.
SPEAKER_01I'm very curious to see what the women's winning time will be. Let's take a look at what we've got here. So this race was run, like I said, in 2025, and the winning female Beatrice Fournette from Quebec ran 41548. So that is the standard to beat. Last year there was only 10 finishing women in this race. So um would hope in the following coming years we would get more uh more women signing up, get a deeper field. Yeah, because this is a this is a beast of a course.
SPEAKER_00Oh, this is uh this is a monster. Yeah. Uh so we were talking about a few names. Obviously, a notable scratch is Karina Anderson. Um, that would have been, I feel like both of our pick uh our picks to be on the podium right there. For sure. But uh name that we started talking a little bit more about after we did a little bit of digging, um, Kayla Kolb or Colby um from Dowington, Pennsylvania, um recently uh came in second to Tabor Hemming at Roth Rock uh by UTMB, the 25k. Uh Tabor did beat her by a relatively sizable amount by 30 minutes, but that it's also worth saying that Tabor is in excellent shape right now and one of the best athletes in the world.
SPEAKER_01I mean, she was third at the second or third, uh, third at the um uh broken arrow ascent and then fourth maybe at the 23K? When that is holy cow. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00The whole weekend of Broken Arrow could have been summarized as some of the best sub-alter racing uh in North America this year.
SPEAKER_01Hands down.
SPEAKER_00So just the level of competition. Tabor's in phenomenal shape right now. So yeah, getting beat by 30 minutes, you cannot hold that against anybody. I I don't think anyone's gonna knock her for that one. She she seems to have some good, some good, um, some good uh history in terms of shorter distance but hard climbing running. Um she has done Meet the Minotaur Sky Race uh back in 2023. Not the strongest performance, but obviously that was her third race overall. So there is some uh there's some good background in doing something that's steep and tough because Minotaur is notorious. I actually think that's a great result.
SPEAKER_01I mean, she ran 736 on the day. The leading women were probably in the six, five or six hour range. My guess is I mean, you gotta remember 45th, that was 2023, so that was a world skyrunner race. So good on her to throw herself into the deep end of the pool and kind of see where you stack up. This is all that type of experience is only gonna make her better for races like this. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, 100%. And she's had some amazing finishes since then. Um, yeah, I mean uh Chakora, which she was eighth at, which is the Chakora mountain race, the 23K in New Hampshire. That's another stout, technically hard race. Um, not quite as steep as what you're gonna see here, but still quite uh quite fit, quite amazing, quite hard. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there that's that's another one. Um a name that we were also talking about, um, Sarah uh Nicolee from Brookline Mass. Um, that she is uh she's also got a lot of history in racing. And if you take a look at her history, she is definitely someone who has focused on the longer distance stuff um if throughout her entire career. Uh, but she's been incredibly successful at it. And it looks like she's kind of she's doing the sky race, the mountain race, the vert junkie, um, everything out here at Whiteface. So I I feel pretty strongly that uh Kayla will beat her out, but um I think fitness is fitness, and I think that's gonna translate well here. Um I I think we could easily see her on a podium for the day, especially with Karina not being uh in the race. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a big disappointment to not have Karina in that race. I think she would do, would have done quite well. Um yeah, total bummer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's it again, this is uh this is something that we wish we could have uh we we could have had a bigger uh a bigger uh field on the women's side for us to prognosticate on. Um one other name, just just because she's been in the sport for quite some time and has also been throwing herself into uh a lot of Sun of P a lot of Sun of P scrambles, Loon's, um, Y-E's Trail Fest, uh a lot of races over the last uh the last few years in particular. Um Patty Higgins, she is she's not gonna I personally I don't think she's gonna be competing for the podium, but um she's just done a lot of the uh similar type races, and it's just again, I am a huge fan of any uh anyone who is more experienced going out and showing the young guns that they need to work a little bit harder. Going after those young guns, dude. Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's get you want to do picks?
Podium Picks And Record Predictions
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's go with picks. Where do you want to start? Men's or women? Uh let's go with the women first. Okay. Uh I think for me, I'm going Robin Vera Brower, um uh Kayla Colby, and then uh Sarah Nicole.
SPEAKER_01I'll say the same thing. I think the nuance here is how dominant is Robin's win?
SPEAKER_00I I think it's gonna be very sizable. I I feel pretty strongly about that. I think Kayla's gonna perform well, um, but Robin is is definitely in that echelon of athlete where unless you are truly an unknown quantity, you're Strava Dark, no one knows what you're doing, but you're putting in the work night and day and you have a a big background in doing this. I don't think um, having taken a look at Kayla's uh history, I don't think she's gonna bridge the gap today, but I think this could be a good carrot for her to chase.
SPEAKER_01100%. Yeah. No, I definitely agree. At least for the first loop. I mean, we'll see how things kind of unfold on the second loop. Um now, you know, Robin has been dealing with some injury. I hope it's all good on that end. Yeah, you know, so I never say never, but at the same time, I I do think that Robin this sets Robin up this will set Robin up nicely for rolling into the final. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and she'll be at I also think it's a good practice, good hard run practice set for um uh for uh Beast of Big Creek. Oh yeah. Yeah, these race names throw me off. Beast of Big Creek, Beast of Minotaur. I'm like, can we just pick a pick a name, a normal name?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what? I I'd rather have a name like that, and it like, even though it's a little weird, it's gonna be like an earworm and it's gonna stick with you. And also, it's kind of a good way to differentiate between uh those races and some of these west coast mountain west races that are in different series. I I also it it's kind of a like uh an indicator that it is like a traditional East Coast race. There's that it's kind of fun seeing that and us both being like East Coast boys. I I kind of miss the silly naming, but it's you know, it's you're like, oh, the beast uh the beast of the east or something like that, or Hellgate, and you're like, how long has this been around? You're like, oh, it's been around since before you were born. And I'm like, okay, never mind. Who am I to complain? Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, I think that's as far as winning time goes, I do think Robin also breaks the course record. I mean Yeah, I I don't see an issue there. All right, moving on to men. I'll let you take it away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I feel like we both stated this already. I think Morgan Elliott is going to take this. Um, I you you you started talking about Robert Sherman having some uh history at this race. And so I'm I'm actually feeling like maybe I'm gonna go Robert Sherman too, and then Brian Rusicki third with a close Dawson Adams after that. Ooh, I like that.
SPEAKER_01All right. Yeah, I think it all depends on what Morgan we get. If it's first team all violence, Morgan, I think it's it's gonna be it's gonna be ugly. Um, and when I mean by that, I mean like Morgan will be by himself the whole day. I I don't think anyone will, especially I don't know, Morgan it's uh very rare that he will be such a big fish. Usually he's competing against some of the best in the world, so it's different. So we'll see how he feels being alone if he wants to run with people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I I don't know. Yeah, he might keep it social for the first lap and then just take it away in the second one. But honestly, I think it's I think he's gonna lead wire to wire, and I I think he's gonna do it mostly alone.
SPEAKER_01I think, I mean, listen, they they do start with the mountain race, and so Timmy Parr is in that race, and he's the only person, in my opinion, with the capability to even hang within a minute of or a couple minutes of Morgan like on the climb. Um, I don't know, Timmy Parr is also getting a little old. Sorry, Timmy, but like I I don't know. He's still great. Tell me how you really feel. Yeah, I mean, he'll he's coming on the podcast in a couple weeks, but Agel Splender, but at the same time, like Morgan's also in his prime. Yeah. So I think that it that, you know, when you start to look at stuff like that, I think Morgan will be alone. I'm gonna go Brian Rasicki in second, and I'm gonna throw this Dawson Adams guy in third. Uh, shout out to New Hampshire. I think that's that's how that's how the cookie crumbles on that.
SPEAKER_00I think that's a fair lineup right there. And my hope is that with us doing some coverage, with a good race out there and people getting to see the course, come next year, we're gonna see a much deeper field, and people are gonna open their eyes to the fact that this was the right this would have been the right choice to make early
Vertical K Names To Watch
SPEAKER_00on. Have you looked at the vertical start list?
SPEAKER_01I haven't yet, actually. Oh, buddy, say less, dude. Timmy Park there he is. Yeah, Mika Boden Wusso is on the start list. Uh he just took an overwhelmingly like stout, like he had a fantastic race out um at uh the Mount Washington Road race.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it was spectacular. And he finished uh Remy LaRue, dude. Yeah, and it wasn't um oh gosh, no, that was Remy. I was gonna say, wasn't uh Mika the one uh correcting your French on on the uh live cast, but that was Remy. It was Remy. Which is fair because he he is yeah, but again, I've I've stated this before. If anyone wants proof of the uphill prowess of Mika, um go watch his Mount Tam ascent video. Uh a friend, I mean, I someone needs to tell his friend three years ago that they that he needed a gimbal, but um it's it's impressive to say the least, and he did it uh sight unseen, came uh third fastest time overall at the at the time. Um this guy's good at uphill.
SPEAKER_01Dude, he ran like 2030 or 2840 something on Great Mountain recently. He's a monster. I mean, probably didn't have the race that he wanted at the broken arrow ascent, and he usually does very well there. I think for the steep technical stuff, like he's usually I mean, has won the rut VK multiple times now, has done just very he's a very good uphill runner, man. Yeah, I I I I wish they would have a live stream. I would love to watch that. Yeah. Um try to look at some of the other names in this race. Timmy Parr, who will also he'll he'll be doubling up on the mountain race and the vertical. It would be cool to see him kind of podium on both. Yeah, I think he has the he probably, in my opinion, is the favorite for the mountain race. Um, maybe Jake Anderson from Norfolk, Arkansas will do pretty well there as well, but it's a little bit of a deeper field um compared to the Sky Race, but the mountain race is looking good. And the vertical K. Um couple other names that stick out to me on the men's side. Uh James L'Oriello in the mountain race. Um longer. I know. Yeah, just I'm a scratch for for that. Um no, I wanted to give a shout out to Mitchell Jacob, friend of the pod. I got to race with him last weekend um at uh um Circus Killington.
SPEAKER_00So he's a stud. Yeah, he's a good stuff. Yeah. Oh, is is he running the mountain race? He's running the vertical view. So I think he'll do well. Mitchell, good luck out there, man. We would love to see you. You know what? If you need us to, we can start trash talking. Uh Mika, get in his head early. Uh, he doesn't know me, but he knows James, and I I know how to take James's phone. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01So Mitchell, I think he'll do great there. Uh definitely rooting for him. On the women's side, some friends. I know everybody gives me shit for saying the term friend of the podcast. Like between Tom Hooper and Michelino, everybody makes they're like, oh, we wouldn't make shirts that say friend of the podcast. Yeah, sorry. I'm sorry, you're the mayor of Podcastville over here. Well, we've got some friends of the podcast in this race. Shout out to Emmy Kohler, Amy Kohler, um, great uphill vertical athlete. She's had some great performances in the past. Um, back in 2023, uh, in the Sunapee vertical, um, she had some great finishes there, or had a great finish there. And then um, she's also the race director of the running kind. Yeah, you had an interview with her just a few weeks ago. So cool, dude. They put on races in the cat skill, they're carbon neutral, like lots of it's like a it's a it's organization really like people really need to get behind. Like Amy, let's chat doing amazing amazing stuff. Um, also want to shout out their um Gabby DeAngelis, um young gun on the marathon sports racing team.
SPEAKER_00Um is that the uh no, that's not the team. That that's the green project um. Yeah, clip. But they I I know that that has uh put out some good athletes in the last few years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, the Green Racing Project in Marathon Sports is uh I think it's just a women's league. I think it's just a women's team that they're supporting, which are that's awesome. Super cool. Yeah, supported by Ultra and uh Marathon Sports.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she was and she ran uh Son of Peace Scramble and was the second collegiate athlete there. So that'll be a really fun race in the vertical over there. Gabby's a boss, dude.
SPEAKER_01She's the only person I know besides my late father-in-law that went to Sienna College. So wow. Shout out Sienna College.
SPEAKER_00I had a few friends that played lacrosse there. Really? Yeah, I'm from Maryland, man. Lacrosse is a religion there. I didn't know Sienna was like, I'm not I didn't know anything about it.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even know where it was until three weeks ago, dude. Um upstate New York, it's by Albany. Yeah, no, I know. I'm I I know where it is. Uh who are the major players in this race besides these great women? I see. Who is this? This is Cheryl Anderson, who won the mountain race last year in 145-54 for 2024. She was seventh in the Sunnepe scramble. She was 14th in the 2022 race, um, which was actually quite deep, as well in top 10 at the 2019 Loon Mountain race. So I'm sure she'll do very well. Yeah. Shout out to Cheryl. Yeah, the women's, I gotta say, the women's vertical race is probably gonna be quite interesting, and I think the men's vertical race will be interesting as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this definitely seems like I mean, we're here for the sky race, but this seems like this will be one of the more competitive races this weekend as well.
SPEAKER_01For sure. No doubt. Um, and the reason I included this as well is I think the sky race is a part of like the the VK. Um, okay, I did not realize Sky Series, yeah. Uh, which is pretty cool. So yeah, man.
Why Whiteface Deserves More Eyes
SPEAKER_01I think that's all I have.
SPEAKER_00If you have anything to add, anything you got there? No, I would just say uh everyone, keep your eyes peeled on this race. I I know we were gushing about it a little bit in the beginning. I know James uh was a notable scratch and uh a terrible flake, and he decided not to go out there, but um I I think Merrill made a really good choice in this race because there's not enough races that are gonna challenge people the way that this is, um, especially in the US. You're not gonna find a race that's gonna have it as steep of a 3K climb right out of the gate in such a cool area. So I think this is a race that we need to start uh giving some more eyes on year over year because this is this deserves to have it on there. 100%.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm so excited for what's gonna unfold, and I think it just it's an amazing opportunity for athletes we haven't heard of to step onto the scene and start to make their name. And uh it's also great opportunity for Robin and Morgan to not mess it up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, stamp stamp their pass and uh their passport, get ready for the year end, and then you know what? We get one we get one or two people who start showing up to more of these the US series, and they they start off here and they build confidence off of that. That could then make them dangerous by the end of the year or going into the next year's US series. 100%. I think it's a good place to end it. Thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it, buddy. This is a good one. Yeah.
