#186 - Dani Moreno

A trail running comeback can look heroic from the outside, but the real story usually lives in the months nobody sees: the freak accidents, the stalled fitness, the identity spiral, and the slow grind back to the start line. Danny Marino joins us right after her Broken Arrow 46K win to lay out exactly what it took to return and race fearlessly again.

We get honest about the injury cycle that derailed her momentum, including a toe fracture that worsened into a full break, a surgery decision, and a knee crash that forced even more downtime. Danny shares what helped most when motivation dipped, why admitting “I want to give up” can be strangely empowering, and how working with both a psychologist and a sports psychologist normalized the emotional chaos that comes with being sidelined.

Then we go practical: how she rebuilt fitness with cross training, gravel biking, and an aggressive strength training focus, why quality mattered more than big mileage, and what changed between last year’s return and this year’s breakthrough. Finally, we break down the Broken Arrow race itself, talk next steps toward CCC at UTMB week plus a humid, technical tune up at Ragged, and zoom out on the rise of short trail racing, live streams, and what the sport needs to keep growing.

If this conversation lights a fire for your own training or recovery, subscribe, share it with a running buddy, and leave a rating and review. What’s the hardest part of a comeback for you: the body, the mind, or trusting the process again?

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Transcript

Welcome And Quick Housekeeping

SPEAKER_00 0:05

This is the Steep Stuff Podcast. What's up, guys? Hey, before we get started, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're listening to this on, please hit that subscribe or follow button, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. Those subscriptions go a super long way in being able to keep the podcast going and allowing me to continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes and also do some of the race coverage and all the good stuff that we've been doing over the last few years. And also, if you haven't already, please give us a rating and a review if you haven't. Yeah, let us know what you guys think about the podcast and hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in.

Post Race Glow And Comeback Context

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Alright, Danny Marino, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?

SPEAKER_01 0:52

It's going good. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, I'm stoked to finally do like a long form chat. I mean, we've I had you on, well, obviously we had our little chat about the state of Up Shore Trailslash Sub Ultra, and then I had you on like pre-broken arrow last year. And I had meant to like reach out to have you on, and then you had this like amazing performance, and obviously you had a about with injury again. Uh and I feel like this was just a great time to finally have you on for a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

So yeah, perfect timing.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yeah. Well, what's uh how's the vibes right now? I mean, you gotta be basking in the in the post-broken arrow glow of uh just relaxation. You gotta be really stoked on on everything now, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, I mean, the night of the race, I like barely slept. I think it was partially just like soaking it in and also all the caffeine I had consumed in that day kept me up. I was like, okay, we need to fall asleep at some point. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was just really cool to feel sometimes you like have a really big performance and then you go home and it's quite quiet. And so I feel really grateful that you know I got to experience TrailCon in Western states. And so having people come up to me and you know, congratulate me and stuff, it definitely elevated the overall experience of feeling like, okay, that was a really, really good day. Um, but yeah, I got home and I was quite tired after all of that, and then training has just started to pick up again. So now it's like a different kind of tired. Um, but it's it is really cool. I I even had a call with my mom today, and she was, she's just like so happy for me, and she's like, I've watched that finish like a billion times. And um, yeah, it's just an overall really good feeling.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I mean, I gotta be honest with you, like it was it was, I mean, even from my end, it was special. Like I I felt that. Like it was every now and then athletes will have this like comeback journey where they go through this, you know, these really difficult trials and tribulations, and then they they they end up making their way back. And uh yeah, I don't know. I just it was so exciting and just really, I don't know, from not just me, but I feel like so many others. Just like people really felt something with that, and uh it just went a long way. So not only giant congratulations, but it it's gotta feel super sweet too to have, you know, I don't know, it you know, just kind of had your comeback, if you will, for the second time.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah, and it it I mean, it is it was hard to, I mean, it definitely was like a mental thing I did have to work through going into this broken arrow as well, because I was like, oh my gosh, I am in the same situation I was last year. Um, but it ended up having an even better outcome than I was expecting. And yeah, I'm really it it did feel like a special one. And I was worried at times, like justifiably, unjustifiably, like, could I top last year? And so to feel like I did in a certain way uh felt quite good. And I I think the best thing is like I hope that it inspires other people that are in kind of like a couple of injuries or just tough life stuff when you feel like you're like, when am I gonna get out of this hole? Um, that you can eventually get out of it.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I guess we'll get into this in a little bit. I maybe maybe the first question before we dive into performance and and what you actually had been going through.

Motivation Through Injury And Rock Bottom

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Um maybe talk about like the mental game. Like, how do you go through what you went through in injury and still be able to find that motivation and not quit? Because so many people in your position would have quit and and would have walked away and said, you know what, maybe I'm just done. Maybe, maybe, you know, I had an amazing career, I've done some amazing things, I've got a great podcast that's growing. I've got, I'm doing all this great stuff. Maybe, you know, maybe maybe this isn't it for me right now.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, I mean, that definitely like crossed my mind in a very momentarily way. Um, because yeah, I had the one injury, I came back and I was like, I'm good for now another five years at least. And then two and a half weeks later had another injury, and I was like, what is this? And I felt like I went into the second injury a little bit more ready to expect that um when you're coming out of something like that, it's not linear. The first time my mind was really struggling with that. I think because I'm a black and white person, uh, in the sense of like it's either good or it's bad. And it's really hard for me, or it's been a process to accept that most of life is gray. And so the second injury, I felt a little bit more ready to be quite adaptable with that this could potentially be a long time. And it was really, really hard. Like I really had to lean on the people around me and um like professionals, you know, talking to a psychologist, but also talking to a sports-specific psychic at the same time to help me like work through these emotions. And one of the things I learned most was just everything I was feeling was normal. I think when you are having like a really tough time, you can kind of be like, poor me, no one else has ever gone through this before. This is the hardest thing. But normalizing that like injuries, regardless of what they are, are really hard. And um, yeah, I felt coming to terms with that. I will say, on that comeback journey, one of the pivots that I wasn't expecting was I bashed my knee open and had to get 13 stitches like two days after I'd been cleared to swim and bike. And I at that point, that was my lowest low because I had already gone through October, like three and a half months of like near nothing. And um, yeah, I mean, I remember being in the ER that day with one of my best friends who showed up because it was the weekend and everyone was like non uh I couldn't get in contact with everyone, which was like, I was like, oh, of course everyone is like in the backcountry today. But this one friend was there, and I just remember telling her, I was like, I feel like I actually want to give up now. I know I won't. And I think just saying that out loud and admitting that I was at my lowest lows was actually one of the most empowering things. And I did kind of give up because I knew I wouldn't. It kind of seems a little bit backwards, but um, sometimes you just have to let yourself just like let go. And I think that ended up being the most empowering thing through that cycle because I was like, okay, you are officially at your version of rock bottom. Now we start to build again. Um, and so yeah, that kind of gave you a bit of strength.

Identity Beyond Being A Runner

SPEAKER_00 7:30

In this injury cycle, how how has it been to figure out, and maybe you're very good at this? I don't know. I know a lot of athletes that struggle with separating who they are as the athlete from who they are as the person and do like pulling self-worth from themselves of the like maybe this identity, if you will, through this injury cycle, did you maybe separate those two, or have you always been able to separate those two as maybe something easier for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

It came it wasn't as easy the first injury cycle going into last year's broken arrow. Um, I think because I was able to kind of clamor to the fact that I could still kind of cross-train a little bit throughout most of the journey. Um, I think with that first journey, it was like four to five weeks completely off, and then I was cleared quite early, whereas this was like almost 14 weeks completely off. Um, and so I felt that life in a way was challenging me to actually implement what I had already learned. At first, you know, I was a little like, why? Why are you doing this to me? Why is this the situation? I already learned my lesson. Um, and so kind of personifying the universe and like, okay, I hear you. Like, I have to actually apply the lessons that I learned last injury cycle. And so I just really leaned into um just my people, honestly, and asking for a lot of help and including them in the journey with me through the highs and lows. Because there are some days where I'm like, I'm gonna be back better than ever. And other days where I'm like, I don't know if I'll ever run a 50K again. Maybe I'll just be a VK runner from now on, um, because that's all I would be able to do. Or just like, I'm gonna go to the roads because my body's not gonna be able to run downhill the same way. And it was just this spectrum that I invited people to come on the journey with me, which I think actually strengthened it. Um, with that being said, I also this time around made actually a couple new friends. And that was one of the most unexpected, strengthening things it did for my identity of self. Like it was so funny because like one of them really didn't know, like, I don't mean this in like an arrogant way, but like how good I was at running. And so it was like kind of funny, like being in conversations sometimes where other people would be like, you know, Danny is like a professional at this. And it just going over this friend's head of like, what? What are you talking about? Like, we just go to trivia on Tuesdays, like we just do this thing. Um, and so that was fun. It's like people don't care if I run or not, like they they just want to be my friend and want to hang out with me. And and that was really healing in its own way, too.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I love that. It's it's I don't know, I feel like it's interesting the psychological aspect of it, learning, you know, how to separate those two. Because like I said before, when I asked the question, like you meet a lot of athletes in the space that have a r they really struggle. And I'm sure you have friends or or know people in the space that really struggle with separating that identity of themselves as the runner. So when those injuries do come up, it's very difficult on them, and they have a very hard time trying to deal with that. So it's yeah, it's not not easy.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Uh I gotta ask you this. This is gonna, this is maybe more of a um observation than a question. Like it's interesting, it's gotta be really frustrating, you as the athlete, because it's not a fitness thing, it's not a performance issue, it's your body literally fighting against you and breaking down in a way, right? That has to be especially difficult because of all the opportunities that you would have had, or you possibly lost by not being out there doing those things. Does that cross your mind? Like uh on and and does that frustrate you in any way?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Oh, yeah, totally. I think also what was really frustrating through the cycle is that all the injuries that I had, we'll call it like three over the last 14, 16 months, were all really quite freak accidents. I think that's what was the toughest thing for me, especially as someone who has grappled with the fact that like perfectionism is a part of my identity, not to like hate upon, but to like work with. I think sometimes we like identify these qualities about ourselves and we're like, we have to get rid of it because it's no good. But learning to actually work with it and see what good it has done for you and just learning to make it more flexible. And so, as someone who is like, I dot all my I's and cross my T's, and yet these random freak accidents happened to me, and now I'm out and I can't like build upon what I've worked on for years. This was like the beginning of this second injury was tougher because the last injury, I was like, Oh, I've been injury free for like seven years. I will eventually get back. Uh, with that one, it was more of a trauma block on the downhill because I broke my ankle on the downhill. Whereas this time I was like, I just got back, building off of what was like months off and like a lot of cross training, and now I have to take another time off. And that was a lot more difficult, like at face value at first, because you know, we are taught physiologically the biggest gains come from block after block after block after block of stacking. And at times it was hard to be like, wow, there's a runner that I was beating like a year and a half ago, like jumping another level, and here I am just like sitting, like watching. And so, and it's not so much like uh a point of like jealousy, more of like myself being like, I want to be there, like playing with them too. Like, I just love competing. I love the community, I love being involved, and I'm just sitting and watching. Um, and so yeah, this time it was a lot of I wouldn't say like mental gymnastics as much as it was like homework being given to me by the two psyches of just recognizing that growth isn't just in like the physical plane. Like there's so many, like there's so much more to an athlete than the training that we are putting in. And so it was kind of learning to accept that like I was resting more than I ever had in over a decade. I was doing stuff like the hyperbaric chain where I was like, I'm pumping more oxygen into my body than I have for years. Like, this has to be doing something hormonally, like a reset for me. Um, and just trusting that that was gonna work out and that, you know, my journey is my journey, and it's gonna turn out the way that it's meant to be.

Foot Care Sponsor Break

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Guys, how's your feet? Like, seriously, yeah. How's uh how are your feet doing? Um, I'm sure if you're listening to this, you're a runner or an athlete of some kind, uh, in one way or another. And as most athletes do, everybody struggles with injury one way or another, and foot care is like one of the most important things when it comes to injury mitigation or just dealing with injuries in general. Um, everything from planar fasciitis, peroneal issues, uh, a lot of people deal with blisters in the sport. Uh kind of the list goes on. It's a great opportunity for me to talk about our partner, Cetus US. Um, I've been partnering with them for a couple years now, and man, the products have just gone such a long way for me as an athlete personally. Um couple months back, I'd been dealing with some peroneal issues and some planter issues on my left foot, and uh got hooked up with some of the Cetus insoles. Um the trail three feet, and man, it went such a long way in helping me rehab that foot and just helped a ton. Um, on top of that, big fan of the socks and big believer in the socks as well. I use them all the time because they're amazing. Uh, but in all seriousness, I'm sure you've seen like Jim Walmsley, Hidden Hawks, and then you know, some of the best women in the sport, like Robin Lesh, um, or even on the ski side, uh Jesse Diggins rocking uh the Cedus feet. And um for me personally, it's the run-in atomic comfort. I absolutely love those socks. Um, it's got reinforced protection, it's got a great grip chip to keep the sock from kind of moving within uh the shoe. It's breathable and it's got great protection, especially for technical trails for your heels and your toes. And uh above all else, it's breathable, so it's not gonna stink too bad. Uh my wife definitely gives uh thumbs up when it comes to that. So I don't have two stinky feet or stinky socks. So if you haven't already, go online, check out CDUS.us, and if you find something you like, use code SteepStuff. It's good for one use only. It's gonna get you 20% off your car and uh giving you guys the hookup. So hope you enjoy it. Check it out, CDUS.us insoles and socks, they've got the best in the game.

Sports Psychology And Normalizing Setbacks

SPEAKER_00 16:22

When it comes to talking to people, specifically like sports dykes or just psychs in general. I feel like formally in in let's say decades ago it was always stigmatized, but it's so healthy and it's such an important thing to do. Would you say it helped a ton through these injury cycles? Being able to have because you can talk to a significant other, you can talk to friends, and obviously you can get great advice. But when it comes to talking to a true professional, I feel like things like that go such a long way. Would you say that helped immensely through this, like through this process?

SPEAKER_01 16:51

100%. Because like those people are no one is ever gonna be like truly objective, you know, but it's kind of the most subjective version you could get from like a human, uh, another human. Whereas like, yeah, the people around me, they can't help but start to take biases from the inputs I give them. You know, I'm gonna tell them about my training, my relationships with my coach and my manager. And over time, they're gonna start kind of like conceptualizing their opinion of a person, whether they've met them or not. And so, yeah, having someone, especially like the regular psych who had no idea what trail running was, that was really helpful to talk to someone about like just my my brain processes as a human, whether it was applicable to sport or not. And then the sports psych is helpful because they've talked to a billion athletes. So again, like normalizing the experience I was having in my injury journal or injury journey was really, really helpful. Because again, you're like, I'm the first person that's ever had two bad injuries. I know that's not true. Cam Smith immediately comes to mind. He was one of my inspirations like during this comeback. Um, but like you just feel so alone at times. Um, because yeah, people admittedly, like a lot of people will reach out initially, but as the journey goes on, it kind of gets quieter, and it's mostly the people that you're seeing in person. So yeah, having this psych there the whole time uh was really, really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

That's amazing. Yeah, it's uh I think we I think especially on for any person going through stuff like that, it's just so important and to be able to to work through, you know, to just work through the whole process.

The Injury Timeline And CCC DNF

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I kind of danced around the actual injuries. I know I remember the first injury, if I know if I remember correctly, was your cuboid. You had broken on the bow the balcony trial of OCC or something like that, if I remember correctly, somewhere around that.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, it was like 3k from the finish. Um, it was I fractured my cuboid, tore my perennial longus, and pulled the sheath off of my cuboid when the perennius longus was getting torn. It like like uh took a bit off there. And then the second injury was a couple weeks after broken arrow. I broke my toe hitting a door jam while wearing toe spreaders. That just is like so funny to me still. And then the last injury was I was riding my knee scooter uh with my boot and my dog, and my dog, it's not his fault, but the leash got kind of caught up in my scooter and it like flipped it forward, and my knee got caught between the handlebars and the seat and like went straight into the pavement, and it just went all the way down to my bone. It just like popped open. Uh, luckily, that one was like, I just remember laying on the floor and like all these people surrounding me, and because like I was bleeding a shit ton and I couldn't get up. And uh they had called the ambulance, and I just remember laying there and I was like, this is it, my career's done. Like, I probably tore my ACL, you know, because I couldn't feel like that space and I didn't want to move it. Um, but luckily nothing was torn. I just like hit it all the way down to the bone.

unknown 20:05

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

And from let's start, let's start with the second injury through this third one, the length and duration to getting us to broken arrow. So maybe you walk walk me through the timeline and then I'll ask questions kind of based off of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah, so basically, you know, worked my way back, got third at Broken Arrow last year in the USA team selection race, and then it was like two and a half weeks after I was just walking around brushing my teeth, and my toe hit the door jam. And that was kind of like a surreal moment. I was like, there's no way I just broke my toe. But I like tried to run on it the next day, and then I took my shoe off and it was just purple and blue, and I was like, oh, this is this is bad. Got an x-ray, and at that point, it was still all together, it just had like a little crack across it, and so my surgeon who had just you know gone through me with the ankle injury was also quite sad for me. He's like, This is crazy that this just happened, and he was like, Toes are hard because some people run through them and they eventually heal, it just like hurts for a bit. Other people put it in a boot. It's kind of up to you. Like, I know you have CCC coming up, but like it can go either way, you know, you don't know which one you're gonna be. And so I kind of made my best guess with the information I had available. That is a pure psych line that I got from working with psyches. But I tried to like bike a couple weeks, swim, and then I just went back to training. And the hardest pinch point was um my dad was facing some like really tough medical stuff. And so I flew out to see him in Tennessee, and the plan was. To go from Tennessee to Europe. And I was in Tennessee and I didn't want to go to Europe. I was like, this doesn't feel right. Like, but again, it was like, I could kind of run, I could kind of not. Do I just stay in Tennessee until CCC? Do I go home? Like it was really, really tough. And we were dealing with my dad's stuff at the same time. And so it was also like a quite like a heavy household to be around. And so I ended up going to Europe and did more training on it. And it just like kept getting worse and worse. Didn't really want to line up. Again, I'm like, I'll just try. And in the process, dropped out of CCC, got home, and then learned I had fully fractured my toe. So what used to be a crack, clean cracked all the way across. And I was like, well, I between last injury and this injury, I know a hundred percent my pain tolerance is stupid. The fact that I was running that many hours on a fully broken toe. Um, and so it was at that point I decided they were like, you can either like try PRP and all this stuff, and it might work. There's this one small study where it worked, but it took like four to five months. Or you can do surgery where you basically like take apart from your heel, shish kebab it between the two toe pieces, stick a pin through it. And like that hat that's also like you know, a little uh risky because like toes are some of the hardest things to heal because they're so far from your heart and they require a lot of oxygen, like bone. And so I was like, you know what, let's just try the surgery. Like, um, and so two days later I did surgery and had committed to that program and it took a while. Like the my surgeon, like was he it was he wasn't like ever truly nervous, but at six weeks he's like, I wish this looked better. Like it just wasn't taking. Um, and eventually, like a cut the next x-ray, he's like, Okay, this is gonna work. You just have to like stick to the plan. Um, and so yeah, in a roundabout way, when the knee happened, like that really sucked and it forced me into the darkest place I had ever been. But because of that, I actually delayed starting up by another two weeks. And part of me is like, I think the universe was like, not yet. Like you just you gotta keep resting because I I wasn't allowed to swim, I wasn't allowed to bike because of the flexion point, I wasn't allowed to like be in public spaces because the wound could get infected, even though it still got infected. Um, and so yeah, it forced me to like take two more weeks before I actually like started PT and stuff. Wow. And so that took me all the way until uh that was like beginning of February, was like when I was allowed to start kind of like walk jogging. I was allowed to start walking in mid-January, I think.

unknown 25:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

And then when did you fall off your scooter?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

I fell off my scooter right before Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Okay, okay, all right. So I've I've got the timeline down now.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Oh my gosh. All right, so a lot of like I'm gonna kind of thread this needle then to get to the broken arrow 46K for this year. I I just sort of like so many questions because you it I mean, like I this is no pun intended, but you don't seem like you lost a step. If anything, you you improved in a lot of ways, and like you see a lot of athletes that have injury and then come back, and it takes them a few times to like figure it out or learn how to race again or all these different things. Whereas like you came back and it really wasn't an issue for you. You nailed it on your first go, which is uh amazing. But obviously, like there's a lot of hard work between you know getting cleared in January to get to this point.

Rebuilding Fitness With Strength And Bike Work

SPEAKER_00 25:50

You said in your Instagram posts 40, 45 mile weeks, things like that. I'm sure a lot of time on the bike. What did that process look like of trying to ramp back up, not get injured again? Because I'm sure you're I I would have been crazy paranoid to not hurt myself. How how did you kind of work through that and what did you do to get to the start line healthy?

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, no, that's a great question. I, you know, this year wouldn't have happened if last year didn't happen. I will say that. Because like last year's broken arrow having come off an injury required me to put a lot of faith into cross-training because I hadn't really done cross-training before. Before that, I was working with a different coach that was very like marathon-centric in his training. So, like, the more mileage, the more consistent, the better. Um, and the faster you are on track, the faster you are on trails. Whereas I switched to being coached by Tom Evans last year, which was like, you just need to get strong. Like, this is a mountain race, and we're gonna focus on like more VO2 centric workouts. And so last year, broken arrow, I know it's confusing for people because they're like, this is the same story. Um, I felt like during the race, I like just didn't believe in the like myself at all. I was like, if I get top five in this field, that would be incredible. This is a great field. Um, and as the race was happening, I was moving up and feeling better as the race went on. Ultimately, had a pretty good final downhill to the point where I was like, I was starting to close on first and second. And that finish line was like everything to me. And so this year I was like, okay, if we can be brave and remember, like up until last year's broken arrow, I had never been defeated at that distance on US soil. And like that was also really hard for me to like give up that. Um, and so this year I'm like, remember who you are during training. Like, you just need to get to the line healthy. It doesn't matter what you've done. And like, even as a young child to high school to college, my best races were when I like believed in myself and believed I could do more than more with than what I had. Like, I just have always had that mentality for the longest time until I started getting to the top like 1-5% of the sport, where I was like, no, more is more. And so during this process, I like remembered that. I'm like, no, that's how that's when you like thrive. Um, and so during the race, I was like, yeah, girl, you're 33. You've been racing more of your life than you have at this point. Just do what you do and like read the field. Don't be scared. Um, and so there was that aspect, like the mental aspect, the physical aspect was okay, where can we close the gaps? Last year, I was like really focused on nutrition. Like, eat really well before workouts, eat really well after workouts, eat during your runs. Like, that's how we're gonna close the gap, and like hopefully get a top five on the day. This year, I was like, okay, your engine, one, you've been working on it for years at this point. Let's do something we've never done before. Uh again, with like the mentorship of my my coaches and like guidance of my coaches. We just like lifted the heck out of me. Like, I was in the gym four to five, sometimes six hours a week, as soon as I was cleared, to build strength. And it wasn't like I was PRing right away, it was a lot of reps at low rate, uh, low weight, just like strengthen the body, strengthen the body. So we did a lot of that. Um, and then we started workouts on the bike, and we probably worked out on the bike for a month before I finally did like my first running workout. And I think between like the bike and the strengthening, it like gave me a new perspective of like what a good base could look like. Like, I think one notion is, and it's a rightfully justified camp, is like when you're building your base, you're just doing a lot of mileage at like a low effort. And a lot of people will do this in the winter. And I was like, okay, you don't have time for that. It's February, it's March at this point. So your base is gonna be like, can you get as strong as you possibly ever have? And then the running will come later and just trust that it's gonna work. Um, and so yeah, that's that's essentially what I did. I just lifted a lot, and when I ran, I ran quality over quantity. Um, and the downhills came back way faster this year than last year because I was like, you've already done this before, there's no trauma here. Um, so yeah, I would say that's how it I pulled it off.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Oh my that's so crazy. And then as for workouts, did you because I I I think the last time I had you on, you would, I think you was somewhere around the time you either first started working with Tom or were somewhere in that range. Do any fancy workouts, like anything crazy like threshold stuff, or were you just kind of just keep it keep it simple, no hero workouts and and kind of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

That's what it was. It was just like pretty at face value, pretty boring stuff, and I've grown to love the boring stuff like four by four, four by six, like five by three, eight by three, just like just adding a little bit more each time. Um, and I'm trying to think what else. I ran more vert this year, like uh in the lower mileage than I did last year. So even though I was running 40 miles a week, I mean it's still not a lot of vert for some people, but it was like 8,000 feet, you know, per week. Yeah. So I was basically like doing the race each week, um, a little bit more mileage. And then I do have to say, like that average, I like put that out on social media so one people know like you don't have to run a shit ton of mileage, but it was it looked like more like a straight line of 38 to 40, and then we did one week of 60, one week of 80, and then we dropped down to 50 right before the race. So I had like two weeks that were higher. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

Stress tests and things. No, I exactly. Yeah, Tom's a good coach, man. That's legit. Like that's uh I always love getting into the weeds on some of the like more specific because you hear like Jack, the stuff Jack Kenzel makes guys do, and and Tom's a similar like mad scientist from that I've heard from people. So it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

So yeah, I guess something I did leave out that probably is an important point, is I did do some double workout days. But I would do like a run in the morning and then like an elliptical or bike in the evening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

How much did you fall in love with a bike? Like uh do we more gravel bike, mountain biking, stuff like that?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah, I don't like indoor biking still. Um, I put up with it. If I'm like really into a show, I grow to like it, but I also realize that my workouts aren't as good when I'm walking watching a show. Um, but yeah, I got really into gravel biking. And what's nice here in Mammoth is you can go down to Bishop. So even in February and March, I was able to like drive down 30 minutes and get on some roads and gravel there. And again, my goal wasn't to like cover distance, it was just to climb as much as I could.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, and I mean, and obviously that translates so well to just being, you know, to to the bottom line for strength. So yeah. Let's

Broken Arrow 46K Play By Play

SPEAKER_00 33:16

uh let's get into the race. I feel like uh I gotta get the play-by-play on how the race just unfolded for you and um just the whole thing. Even though I was there, like uh I was around. I I didn't I was just hanging out, the Cedas booth, kind of being a bum. But I didn't really I was doing uh like media stuff, but yeah, I um give me the play by play, like start line to to the finish. Like I know you said there was there was this confidence that you had found and that you had had on that start line. Did you have any nerves? Like, especially because it had been a bit like a minute since you'd been on start line, like a little bit less than a year. Um, how are you feeling? And then as the gun goes off, you know, kind of walk me through like how the everybody packed up. How did you, you know, kind of assert yourself into the race and things like that?

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, it was really interesting. I was very calm, probably all the way up until the day before. Uh, there was a couple media things, and those always like insert a little bit of adrenaline into me. I don't know if you've experienced that too. Um, and so we had to do some stuff for the live stream, and then the subhub FK like did a little uh elite panel thing. Um, and so I was getting a little jazzed up from that. And the morning of um, I just have to say this because I think it's so funny. Like three minutes before the start, I was wearing road shoes, and so I had to sprint back to my car. And part of me is like, yeah, I just need to get one more strident, and I like put my shoes on and run back to the start. And I was like, I can't believe I just did that. Clearly, we are out of practice of racing. Um, but I Trevorny's just so cool. Like at the start line, you know, everyone's giving hugs. I I love Rachel Drake. Like, we've been in the sport roughly, came into the sport roughly at the same time, and I just like have so much respect for her. Like, she's such a weapon. And so, like hugging her, seeing her, seeing Leah Yingling, uh, seeing Robin Lesh, my teammate Kimi Schreiber, it was just like, yay, like we're here again. Like, this is really cool. Um, and I think I was just excited to see how I was gonna do. Like, I was confident, but I was also excited. Um, I don't know, I feel like now as I get older, I always tell myself, this is gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done. And like there shouldn't be any surprises. As in, like, there's obviously the competition you're already aware of, but if someone is having a breakout day, like that shouldn't shudder your confidence if suddenly it's their day. And if anyone is ahead of you that like, there should never be someone ahead of you that like shouldn't be ahead of you, right? And so, yeah, I was just like, okay, I'm just here to fight, I'm here to race who is also here to race. Um, and so the gun went off, and very similarly the last year, I get shot off the back. That started so fast, and like I consider myself a pretty fast person, but on the asphalt, I always get dropped. And um I like start up the first climb, and one of my friends surprised me. She drove like six hours to come and watch me. That gave me a shot of adrenaline. Like, what are you doing here? Um, and I was like probably back in like 12 or something. And then, same thing as last year, just within as the trees went, just like ran my pace, started to work my way up. Um, and I couldn't see Rachel after like the first mile. Like I ran back behind her for a little bit. Um, she was definitely running that part stronger than I was. Um, but I was just like looking at my heart rate, I was like, okay, just like trust your pace, trust your race, run your race, run your race. Um and have you run broken arrow?

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Uh I did the iron face back in 2023. I have not run like an official like 23k or 46k yet. You should, you should at some point.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

But what I love about broken arrow is the trees are very deceiving. And as soon as you pop out of the trees, you can see a lot of the field. Um, so you really have to trust yourself. And the same thing happened to me last year where I popped out the trees and I was like, oh, well, there's everybody. Um and on that first climb, I believe it's up to Snow Keen, is the first aid station. I could see Rachel, I could see Kimmy, and you could kind of hear people cheering, like, go Robin, go Leah, on that first climb. And I noticed right away that I was able to run almost the entire thing, whereas a couple of the other women were hiking. And immediately I was like, Oh, I think I'm gonna win today. Just like how good it felt like running. And I was like, okay, don't do anything crazy. Just again, just run your way race. You don't need to like close any gaps, just let the course do the racing for you in a way. Um, and so we went past Snow King. And what's fun about Broken Ear is there's like these random, like half mile steep downhills that you go down. So as soon as you gain feet, you lose like 500. And then uh we were climbing and I started to close the gap on Rachel. And yeah, it was fun just running with her. And randomly, Caleb Olson was also there, which like kind of cracked me up too. I was like, this is fun. I'm like hanging out with a couple of buddies. Um, and I just ran with Rachel because we were, you know, going back and forth, and like I would kind of like try to put in a move, she'd respond, and I was like, okay, cool. This is I love racing Rachel. Like she's so fearless and just incredibly strong. Um, and so I finally made a move. Oh my god, I don't know the part. It's like right before the last like long climb, uh, up a steep part. I was like, okay, as soon as I can run on something steep and maybe she's hiking, just go and don't look back. Um, got to the top, could still hear people yelling, like, go Rachel, go Kimmy. Um, and then was told I had 30 seconds and went over the top and just told myself, don't do anything crazy. You still got a lap and a half to go. Got to um Shirley Canyon, popped out, still heard I had like 45 seconds, and I was like, Okay, we're not even like pressing the gasket yet. Like, this is good. Got to the first lap and was told I had a minute, and I was like, okay, we're good. We're good, just do the same thing again. And so worked the climb. And it was when I got to the the top of the first aid station again, and like went down that steep downhill. I heard that I had I think two minutes, maybe three minutes. I'm not too sure. Maybe two minutes, two minutes. And then I remember saying out loud, I was like, I got this. I just put a minute and four miles. I got this, and um, yeah, it just continued throughout the day.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Wow. What a performance. I I I mean, I uh I speak like I don't understand or I don't know the broken or broken arrow, like the lupa, if you will. But I've been on most of it. Like I ran most of it when I was out there a couple weeks ago. I was very surprised that like the first three miles of it's like relatively flat to like downhill or first like two, a little bit more than that. Yeah, I and then you start gaining. And I was like, ooh, this is uh like that this explains why like guys like Christian and like some of your better roadrunners can really, really, really like hammer those sections. Um, and then you know the race kind of mixes itself up once things start to get and when you get to the steeps, they're like really steep, um, runnable, but just like very, very steep, which is interesting. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah, it's a I think it's a really fun course. It's uh has a little bit of everything. There's I wouldn't say it's the most technical course. Have you run the downhill? Yeah, it's I mean it's like there's like one tiny bit when you're coming off the top, you just have to watch your ankles and stuff like that. Then you get to the aid station, and then one section after Shirley Canyon where you just have to like you just have to pay attention. It's just that it gets narrow, so you have to like squeeze in through these spots. But other than that, it's like quite a fun course.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, it's cool. It's I mean, and plus the vibes and the atmosphere. Uh closing out the race. What did that um yeah, how how did you feel like crossing that finish line to think like I just I just did this? And you know, like obviously on a huge stage, like this year ACG, like they went all out, like it was it was a giant party. Just what crossed your mind? Like, uh is it was it something like I'm back or I never left or I did this? Like what kind of went through your mind?

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, I think similar to last year, it's just uh a weird retrospective moment where like the last months of your lives flash before or the last months of your lives flash before your eyes. Um, and so just having that moment again. And also, like I think what came out immediately to my husband is like, oh, I'm as strong as I thought I was. Like I was, I got, I did it again. And I think that felt really good and really proud that I didn't give up. And also just like a little shock and awe that it was uh a pretty good win. You know, it wasn't like a wire-to-wire at the end, like I felt very strong the entire day. Um, and so that just gave me a lot of confidence of like we just, you know, knock on wood, like stay healthy and like, you know, continue this momentum. But you just started your year like that. Like it just, yeah, it it felt really good, and all my people were there. Um, a lot of my family was there, and it felt really nice to share that moment with them.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

I overuse the word words best in the world a lot. Like I feel like because I'm just such a I'm just a fanboy of the sport and fanboy of all the athletes, but like to think about like those words like I'm one of the best in the world, like that that that's got to give you like amazing confidence. Like that that you know, you were before and you still are, you know, you never left, which is pretty, pretty damn cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

Yeah, I I would say that as well. And again, like you know, Rachel is in the freaking hospital the day before working, like she's such a badass, and I felt really grateful that she was there because she's just one of those like staple people in my career, you know, because again, we've just we've we've crossed roads so many times. And I was just as happy for her. I'm like, we're still doing this, like years later, like we're both on the podium, but broken you're like, that's crazy. Like we still like not that I ever doubt it. It's fun to be like, we still got it, you know. Um and immediately like it was actually my post race uh debrief with Tom. Uh, because you know, he's my coach, but also I have the utmost respect for him as an athlete. Like he is one of the best. And for him to be like, that was really incredible. Like what you did off of this block, like you should recognize that not a lot of athletes could have done that. And so that was like quite confidence giving to your point where, like, oh, it feels really good, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

You should never doubt yourself. Like, my God. I'm not like not anymore. Not just an inspire, like, and I said this in the beginning, like, not just an inspire inspiring performance, like for people to see, but like just like wow, like cements, like really, like you uh, yeah, truly like world class and like one of the best in the world, which is it's pretty damn cool. So

What’s Next Ragged And CCC Goals

SPEAKER_00 44:44

um things want to shift gears a little bit. I feel like we we I wanted to make sure we told the story of Broken Arrow because like this is something like so monumental to have this giant like hero story to come back. And I want to make sure we covered all that, but I I can't be remiss if like I ask you like what's next. Because I did peep your ultra sign up and I saw Ragged in there. And I was like, how does that fit into this build? We gotta we gotta what what's the what's the next A goal, if you will?

SPEAKER_01 45:08

The next A goal is CCC. Um, but I am gonna do Ragged. And um I do the East Coast is humbling. I think it's a really good place for athletes to race. Um, and one of the things that intrigues me about Ragged, there's a couple of things. One of them, looking at the course, it's like really chunked up into like you can run, it's super technical. You can run, it's super technical. And CCC is very similar, like it has a little bit of everything. Um, it also is extremely hot and humid. And right now in Europe, it's really hot and humid. And there's just like I was trying to look at a couple races because my parents are out in Tennessee that could kind of replicate that feeling. So I don't show up to CCC with some like fluid loss and sodium numbers, and they're just completely wrong. Um, because I live in a very dry, high climate. Uh, so I want to be ready for that. And having dove into a lot of ragged uh stravas, uh, the wheels come off for a lot of people there. And I want to see if that happens to me. Because broken arrow, it felt like the wheels were on the entire time. And so if I'm put into a different climate, what happens? Um, and so that's very intriguing to me. And then also there's a great prize purse, and I've been out for two winters, and this is my job, and so that immediately is like also incentivizing. Like it'd be nice to make money because you know I've had this incredible growth, but you know, it'd be nice to make some money, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Dude, Tom Hooper's been been driving me nuts about Ragged, so you don't understand like how much how excited he is right now. Like, he'll listen to this and nice Christmas for Tom Hooper. Um, no, I think it's a great idea. And you know, I think the Northeast, um I don't know. I I talked to Dan Kurtz about this a lot. I've talked to a lot of athletes on the East Coast, and I just feel like for racing in Europe, the East Coast provides a it's it's it's I feel like it's sometimes in a lot of ways a little bit of a better fit for certain aspects of trying to get ready for certain races on in Europe, if you will. Technicality is different, the courses are used, especially in New Hampshire and Vermont, a lot of straight up uh trails. It's much steeper in some some ways. Um, obviously humidity and heat, it's just a different different ballgame. So yeah, I think it's uh it's a good fit. And a lot of like really solid athletes like have have given a piece of themselves to to ragged it over the years, which is kind of cool. Like David Sinclair's had great races there, um, just quite a few, which is cool.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

So yeah, and like the women's record isn't easy. Like I'm gonna try and see if I could run a a record there. Um, and Casey Ensman ran a really great, and Casey's an incredible, I mean, she just knows how to run that terrain. Um, so I think it's gonna be a good effort. And the other thing that I think is good for athletes going up over to Europe, and something I've been really trying to apply to my current training is like really trying to run almost overly technical trails so that when you get to Europe, it's not so much of a shell shock. And I did that my first year going to OCC, like I could care less about the profile. I was just seeking out like really hard trails, and I got third because like come race day, I was like, oh, this isn't that bad. But I think if you like run what is equivalent to Europe, I don't know. It's just like a personal ethos, I guess. And like East Coast, Beast Coast, like I'm ready to get my um butt whooped.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

No, I agree. It's uh I think yeah, a lot of that stuff will will uh definitely prepare you. From like the Tarix perspective, will you just go, I guess, bounce straight from the East Coast, then straight to Europe? And I guess because I know a lot of brands usually, you know, they'll have a house and stuff like that waiting for their athletes, and you guys can have some time to prepare. Is that what you'll do as well?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

No, I'm gonna come back home. Yeah, I'm gonna finish my block here and I'll go out closer to race. Um again, just like I am throughout this, like one of the things I found that I missed most was exploring my backcountry trails. Like when I was sad in the middle of winter, like what was I dreaming of? It was like being home and like being able to run parts of the JMT and the PCT and stuff like that. I wasn't dreaming about going over to Europe, which I think um, yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm really trying to trust my gut more on these things. Like, what is it that comes to your mind first and your gut first when it comes to this? Um, so yeah, I'll come home after Ragged, do one more, I think like 10-day block that will be quite large, and then I'll head over.

Media Obligations And Protecting Performance

SPEAKER_00 49:35

All right. This is uh I'm gonna shift gears a little bit because I asked you about like when you get over there, uh through sponsors and stuff like that, do you have a lot of like media obligations and stuff that like you have to do? Like, how do you dodge that stuff? Because I know a lot of athletes just want to like keep it quiet, just do my thing, get to race day, and then you know, try to obviously it's it's a it's a blessing and it's amazing to have those opportunities, but at the same time, like performance is king, and that's gotta obviously that matters the most. So how how do you balance those things?

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah, I think it depends if you're a favorite or not, and like probably who your sponsors are. Adidas doesn't ask very much of us, uh, which is nice. Um, but yeah, it is tough because like I do think it's part of the job, and uh like you shouldn't be saying no to everything. Like if you're like double booked or it's a little too much for a day, or if it again, just like trusting your gut. It's like if someone asks me to do like a two-hour photo shoot, I'm gonna say no, thank you. Can we just do 20 minutes or 30 minutes and you just get one shot? Um, or if it's like the UTMB go up on the stage thing, it's like it takes like five minutes, you know. Um, so I don't mind doing stuff like that, but you know, everyone's different and you gotta find what works for you.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

But don't be scared to say no. I yeah, like there are some people that can't that have trouble saying no, but like you should look at it from our perspective of like how long is this ask gonna actually take of you?

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

But if you're like one of the favorites, oh my, I can only imagine. Like if you're like a gym or Courtney or Katie, oh, I bet they're getting asked to do so much stuff, and they probably have some agent or something like that. But I think the most I've been asked to do stuff is like four short, like 10-minute interviews, and I'm like, okay, that's easy.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

It is weird, like the level of professionalization like we've gotten in the sport, and like like some famous. Like, I was standing at the Broken Arrow VK, I was standing next to Hans Troyer chatting to him. He just happened to like just appear over my shoulder. And so I started chatting with him for a couple minutes, and he takes off and starts like just like trying to like wind his way through people. And I guess he's like pretty like I guess it's easy to recognize him. Dude, that guy couldn't make it like 10 minutes without like everybody just asking him, ask him for a photo or just like saying, Hey, it's the kid. And I was like, oh my god, like our sport has really reached that level of popularity where like if someone knows who you are, like everybody knows who you are. It's kind of weird. Like, I couldn't imagine what Jim must deal with, or Courtney. Same thing. Like, it must be obviously humbling and amazing, but also kind of annoying when you're trying to like prepare for like one of the biggest races of your life or trying to put together a performance and things like that. So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Totally. Yeah, I've had I've I think the person that I've had that experience the most with is Sarah Alonzo. Like she is an absolute superstar in Europe, and I've never seen someone get asked to do so many photos than her, but she loves it. Like for her, easy, you know, she's like such an extrovert, doesn't mind it. Um, but I can imagine for other athletes. So again, I think it's just depends on the person.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Yeah. It's

Short Trail Growth And Live Streaming

SPEAKER_00 52:41

interesting. All right, so I'm gonna kind of thread this into the podcast conversation with uh the subhub. Um with with that though, like with the professionalization and as the sport has grown, like are are you happy with where the direction it's headed? I ask everybody this as an open-ended question. Like, what do you think about the sport and kind of like how what's your stoke level and where where it's going and the growth over the last few years?

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Yeah, I think it's uh I don't know, I think it's fun. I think it's it's always gonna be a process, like learn as you go. Um, I think very few sports have had this like such large struck uh stroke of um increase in participation. Our sport is unique in that sense of that anyone can race alongside of us. Whereas, you know, you watch the World Cup and it's just the professionals playing against the professionals and all the other sports that you could think about. Um, and I think that's also what makes us like super special is that you can line up alongside of the pros. Um, but yeah, I think it's it's hard to, as the ship gets bigger, I think it's gonna be more difficult to steer, which makes me grateful for how many people are so passionate about its direction. Um and I just hope and have a lot of optimism that there will always be spaces for kind of its multi-den-dimensionalism. I don't know if that's actually a word, but like the ability to have like the mom and pop small race and local roots race that, you know, maybe there's not an entry fee, maybe there's not, up to the UTMBs and like everything in between. Um, and yeah, I think it's really cool. I mean, obviously, I still have a special space for short trail, and you know, on weekends like the ones we just experienced, where it's like broken arrow, western states, and then in between you have Lavareto and Mont Blanc Marathon, which also come with a couple other lengths of distances as well, like Mont Blanc 90K, Lavareto, I think it's 102k. Um, and it's pretty interesting to like see where the fandom kind of uh gravitates towards amongst those four races and like what they find most interesting. Um, and so yeah, I think just always making a conscious effort to continue to elevate short trail, like it'd be interesting to ask like a North American trail fan versus like a European trail fan, like what was the biggest result out of all those races? You're gonna get completely different answers. You know, I mean we have Tolve Alexanderson, who was the first woman to break four hours and scored an insane UTB index score. And you have Jen Lichter breaking Courtney DeWalter's record, Vincent Bouillard breaking Jim Wongsley record, uh let's see, um Lucy Bartholomew and uh Samaya Buddha breaking the historic La Vareto 102K record. It was just like it's so hard to pick, and I hope people can just like find a space for all of them versus being like Western states is the all in all. It's like no, there's athletes doing great things in all of these races. Like it's absolutely incredible. Um, so yeah, that's like my only hope.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Do you think, see, I this year, Broken Arrow, I was really like, I I mean, like I said, the last time I'd been there was like 2023, and I feel like it's grown like 30 at least 30% since then. And I was astonished by like, I was like, wow, this is the this is like an international like vibe. This is huge. Um does that give you hope for like just short trail, just the for footprint as as you and I both work to grow this this section of the sport and the fandom and all of those things. Did races like Broken Arrow just give you hope that like wow, like this is uh not only is it the most approachable way to get into the sport in a lot of ways, outside of like having to run like 31 miles or something like that uh for a 50k, but also just like uh where the fandom will start to maybe turn its head with some of the um you know with the athletes in the fandom kind of going forward.

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Yeah, I think uh I mean this year was absolutely huge, even from last year. Like last year felt quite large with it uh being the USA team selection race. Like there was a lot of hype around that. And last year it was a golden trail race as well, which was really cool to have all those eyes on it. And this year I'm like, how does it feel even bigger? It's not a golden trail race, it's not a team USA selection race. I think the Nike live stream definitely helped with that, and I think you are an advocate of this too. Like live streams are incredible for this sport, especially at the short trail distance where the audience can kind of stay engaged the entire time. Um, they can with the longer stuff too, but it's just a bit easier. And yeah, I mean, it's just to me, it comes down to money, honestly. Like investment, like the fact that Nike was able to put it up on such a platform really helped. Um, but yeah, MK and I did a panel at TrailCon that was called Why Short Trail is the best investment in trail running. And it wasn't to be like we are better than the ultra distances, it's just that like all these businesses should have a space in their portfolio because when you look at Broken Arrow in all of the live stream, just look at the races. You have kids' races, you have an ascent, you have 26k. And to your point, like they are so much more accessible and approachable for someone potentially coming off the couch or just getting the trail running. It's probably easier to wrap your head around an 11k versus a 250 Coca-Dona race. Um, and like when you have these kids' races, their families come with them. And those people are gonna spend money on stuff that's at the, you know, the tents and stuff like that. Um, and so yeah, it does make me excited. I just hope that the investment continues. That is my like only thing that I'm a little bit nervous about is like, is this a one-year contract? Like, yeah, are you gonna keep doing this? Is the next sponsor gonna bring it to the same heights? Um, and also just recognizing that like Broken Arrow is what it is, and not every short trail festival needs to be like this. Like the Rut has its own kind of flair, Mammoth Trail Fest has its own kind of flair. But if you want this flair, come to Broken Arrow. I don't know if that answered your question. I might have to.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

I mean, and I've got 20 more questions before you all. Um, yeah, because this is you know, this is something I've speculated on and thought about for a long time. And like, listen, I'm I'm as happy as anybody for ACG to come in and partner with Broken Arrow because this year the product that they produced was truly one of the coolest things I've ever seen in the sport. But like you said, to your point, I I hope it's not just a one, maybe two-year thing. Because, you know, it benefits the athletes in so many ways too. The live stream gets athletes' name and likeness out there. You get to learn about your your Danny Moreno's, your Christian Allen's of the world, your Mason Copies. Like it it really grows the fandom in that way. But also on the flip side, too, like the the prize money really matters and goes a long way for athletes trying to pay the bills uh and things like that. So yeah, I really hope that this is a the start of a long-term big European-like festival in America, and and it just continues to grow from there. And like you said, like we have the there's there's a little bit of something for everyone. We've got broken arrow, you've got your Cirque series races, you've got the Rut. There's a little bit of uh whatever you're looking for, you can kind of get that in the United States now in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think the other thing that's pretty cool is that like I think with Western states in particular, UTMB, this can be tough at times because the courses are always freaking changing. But like Western states, people get really excited. When all is said and done, they'll be like, this is the fastest top 10 in history, or now we have four of the top six fastest times ever run, and people get really excited about that. And I'm hoping now, like that same kind of nomenclature is applied to races like Broken Arrow. And, you know, with it having been Golden Trail a couple years ago, if you have an athlete, say an unknown, um, and they come in, they're like, oh shoot, they just ran the fifth fastest time ever. I hope that people that like starts to elevate as well in these short trail races because I think there is a little bit of like hyperfixation on like the winner, you know, and it's like, did they break the course record? Yes or no? Okay, that determines whether it was a good race. When it's like, okay, where does this fit in the history of this race? And wow, they cracked into the top 10. What a big day. Um, and I think we are starting to get a little bit of that too, because of like the 46k last year. Incredible performances. We we had great conditions last year. Like this year is a bit hot. And so now that we have that depth of performance, you could take a Sarah Carter and be like, wow, Sarah Carter is the I've I forget what it is, like sixth or seventh woman to break five hours. Like that is a statement, you know. And hopefully that's something she can like apply to when she talks to sponsors or the media is hyping her up. She's like, she is one of six to ever break five hours. Um, so that's just something like I hope we get better at too.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

I and that that and that just goes with the media and the statistics side, you know. Like I think Finn Finn has done a great job at uh being able to bring statistics into a lot. I think a lot that's something we need to do more of just from a media perspective, is just have more that kind of comparison. On the flip side, too, uh to add to that, it is so nuts that Broken Arrow, we've gotten to the point now where, yo, a top 20 result is like super legit. And you can't say that for a lot of races in the United States. Like, obviously, top 10 has always been very good, podium, and then winning is is important. And I feel like from the Ultra perspective, we're always looking at the podium. But the short trial races now have gotten so competitive and it's so deep that uh yeah, like top 20 is like, whoa, like these are you know, like Caleb in in the 46k. Like Caleb's a Western States winner. I don't know where he's at with certain builds and stuff like that, but like to you know, when you're looking at performance and things like that, like top 20, top 30 results is actually pretty good. So it's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

No, I totally agree. And hopefully it's something that the sponsors too, you know, they can like broken arrow is like the perfect funnel. If I was a sponsor, maybe you have a kid in the U18 race that crushes it next year in the 23K, it's like, oh, he's 22nd. Like he might be someone to keep an eye on in the coming years, like and potentially like get early onto my roster because he's just like he you can see the growth not only in the results, but in the like the race distances as they start to move up, if that's what they want. Um, so yeah, it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah, yeah. The you I I think we have a lot. I we have more to be excited about than I don't really think we have anything to be upset about, but we have a lot to be excited about uh as far as the short trail scene. As

Longevity Goals And Chasing Bigger Dreams

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

far as um, you know, this is something question I had for you for you earlier, and I ask a lot of athletes this. Like, when you look at your your resume and your career, how long do you want to do this for? Like, is this something you want to do till you're like 50s, 60s till your Casey like Casey Eanman age in like mid to late 40s and still crushing? Like, how long do you want to do this for?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

That's a really good question. I know Luto is just shattering what I thought was possible. I'm like, dude, this guy, man, he's like 50 something, like absolutely smashing it out here. Um in this moment, it feels that uh I probably have another at least like five years in me, I would say. Um, but you know, there's other life things I do eventually want to like shift focus to like having a family and stuff like that. Um, I think my personal biggest inspiration is Judith Weeder. Like she is just she's a goat to me. You know, people have their goats in this sport, and I'm like, why is she not included? Like this woman has been at the top of Short Trail for so long, has won in podium at all of the every race you could freaking name. Um, and I believe she's like 37 or 38 and still going strong. And so yeah, just having like an example like her, and she has two kids of just still absolutely smashing it. Also, it would be nice to you know lean a little bit more energy into the podcast and like the media side at some point too. Um, but yeah, I mean, time will tell. I keep telling people like these two injuries, I would not wish them upon myself or anybody else, but I feel like they added years to my career, to be honest. Like coming into this training cycle, how I feel now training for CCC, like I just have so much more energy and just like mental fire for the sport that before these two injuries, I was like, wow, I'm starting to get a little tired. You know, it's been it's been a stretch.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

When you look at your career from because you've done so much and like seriously, as like one of the best in the world, like what have you not gotten yet that you want to get before it's all said and done?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

I would like to get another, I would like to try some longer races for sure. Um, I'm convinced I'm an a longer runner who's made themselves into a mountain marathoner. Um, because I just I my strength is. Always at the end of races, and I feel like I always have a little bit more to give. Um, so yeah, I'd like to try some longer races. I would really, really like another podium at a UTMB week race, whether that's OCC, CCC, UTMB is still a little hard for me to wrap my head around in this moment. Um but yeah, I think that would feel pretty cool. Um, but I don't need it. It's just something that would be nice to have. I feel to your point, like through these injuries, I was like, if my career ended now, I'd I'd be very satisfied. Like it's pretty pretty good career. Um, but I'm excited to see if I can get a little bit more out of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Because you cover it, and because we both do, uh any chance like you'll you'll pop up randomly for like a golden trail race ever again? Like, do you think you're like like because it's a gamma? Like, do you have any unfinished and unfinished business there or like series and all or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:51

I don't know. I yeah, I surprised myself a couple years ago I got second at Mammoth Trailfest, and I was like, oh, I still got it in these short races. Um I think if there was anyone, I'd probably do Broken Arrow 23k if that ever got back on the schedule. Uh admittedly, Quebec looked really sick. I wish I had had the energy to do that. That looked really cool. Um but yeah, maybe if uh if something like strikes my interest, because I love Golden Trail. It's so fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's amazing. Um I seriously could talk to you for two hours, but I'm gonna I'm gonna give you some time back. I don't want to take up your entire evening. Uh Danny, thank you so much for coming on. I can't wait to have our next convo. Um, I feel like we could do a podcast on podcasting. So that that could be uh but yeah, just want to say thank you so much. Wishing you the best of luck in the rest of your build and and your journey to uh uh to CCC. And uh yeah, we'll definitely be in touch.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

Yeah, thanks for having me. Whoa, thank you.

Final Thanks And Listener Support

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

First and foremost, I want to just genuinely thank Danny from the bottom of my heart for coming on the show. Uh, we talked about some heavy stuff in there, man. It is not easy doing what she did, and then to do it twice slash like three times to have that comeback and then go win Broken Arrow in such a stunning fashion. Um, dude, one of the best in the world, and above one of the best in the world, just like one of the most inspiring people in our sport and one of the most inspiring humans, period. So uh I feel like anybody can get inspired from this episode. It doesn't matter what what you're going through in life, to have setbacks and be able to overcome them and uh work through what you're dealing with. Um, man, Danny is just a uh an amazing example for us all to learn from. So um give her a follow on Instagram if you don't already, I'm sure you do. Also, check out the Subhub podcast. Big fan. They are doing amazing work covering the sport of Shore Trail. It's kind of nice to not be alone in this. Um, love the love the work they're doing, especially their international work is amazing. Um, really good coverage on the Golden Trail races, uh, great coverage on yeah, just great interviews with international athletes as well, just everybody in general. So um loving it. Big good stuff there. Um, guys, if you've been enjoying the podcast and if you enjoyed this one, please give us a five-star rating and review. Uh, if you don't already follow us, I know I asked in the beginning. I'm gonna ask again. If you don't already follow us, give us a follow, whether that's on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you consume your podcast. It goes a long way in discoverability and it helps us grow this thing, especially when it comes to um well, followers and then uh what's the other thing? Um, yeah, the comments. I sound so excited about it. Um, give us some comments. Uh, would love to hear your feedback on the pod. It would mean a ton. And like I said, the more of those and the more reviews and ratings just help with the discoverability and helps keep the lights on. Uh, because we we're trying to keep trying to do that right now. So um good stuff there. Very, very last but not least on the housekeeping. And I know I keep beating you guys over the head with foot care, but I'm not joking around. I want you guys to have amazing and healthy feet. And uh it all starts with our brand partner, Cetus. Check out Cetus at Cetus.us, whether it's the Socks or the Insoles, this is both are amazing. I've been a big fan, and I use the insoles on a daily basis as well as in racing. Um, and big fan of the socks, the run and atomic comfort are my jam. So check those out. Use code steep stuff, that's one word, steep stuff, it's gonna get you 20% off your cart. Um, yeah, why not? Free money, guys. Enjoy it, have fun. Check out what Cedas has got to offer. Uh, and yeah, have a great rest of your week. Thanks for tuning in. We've got so much fun stuff coming down the pipeline. It is good to be back after a little break. Uh, I'm very excited to be bringing you guys a bunch of stuff both on the social media end and on the pop. So thanks so much for tuning in.