The Steep Stuff Podcast
Your Source for all Things Trail, Mountain & Skyrunning
The Steep Stuff Podcast
#189 - Mathias Eichler, RD - Beast of Big Creek
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Two weeks before a race, the glamor disappears and the real work shows up: shipping cutoffs, permit conversations, course marking decisions, and an inbox that never stops. We sit down with race director Mathias Eichler to talk about what it takes to bring Beast of Big Creek back and level it up as part of the Skyrunner World Series, without sanding off the personality that made it special in the first place.
We get specific about the runner experience and the race director reality. Mathias breaks down how a family-run, community-driven trail running event can host international skyrunners, build a full weekend at camp, and still feel local through handmade details and creative choices. We also talk about the unsexy essentials that protect a race long-term: enough bathrooms, clear briefings, smart aid station planning, and communicating expectations across cultures and languages.
Then we go deep on the hard constraints of mountain media and race logistics: drones in national forest boundaries, Starlink priorities for timing and search and rescue, tree cover that blocks coverage, and why livestreaming a short, technical skyrace often doesn’t pencil out. If you care about skyrunning, trail race directing, responsible trail running, and how events grow without going cookie-cutter, this conversation is a clear look behind the curtain.
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Welcome And Quick Subscribe Ask
SPEAKER_02This is the Steam Stuff Podcast.
SPEAKER_01What's up, guys? Hey, before we get started, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're listening to this on, please hit that subscribe or follow button, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. Those subscriptions go a super long way in being able to keep the podcast going and allowing me to continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes and also do some of the race coverage and all the good stuff that we've been doing over the last few years. And also, if you haven't already, please give us a rating and a review if you haven't. Yeah, let us know what you guys think about the podcast and hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in.
Two Weeks Out From Race Day
SPEAKER_01All right, Matias Eichler, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going, my friend?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. From podcast to podcast, from like Amazon shipment to like uh I'm my garage is filling up. It's absolute utter madness in my um uh vicinity. But for you, I always have time. Let's chat. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, honestly, it's not as always, it's an honor and a privilege to have a chat. And I feel like this is amazing timing now because we're literally less than two weeks away from the beast of Big Creek, man. Uh I I know you and I talked about this offline. How are you feeling? Like this is this is a lot of work, dude. You could put in getting ready for a world skyrunner race. How uh how's the the early vibes going?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think by now it feels, and I told you this a little bit offline, it's starting to feel like locked in, right? There they there's going to be one more panic moment when I can't order anything on Amazon Prime anymore and have it shipped to my house. So like, oh my gosh, I need pins for the bibs, right? I mean, they're sort of when when shipping doesn't work anymore, which will be in a few more days. But right now, like the big stuff, it's too late for the big stuff, right? I can't, if I want, I couldn't order banners anymore, right? And so I think the six-week, four-week period is way more stressful because you're trying to figure out how much you actually want to do, where you want to spend your money. Now, all I have to do, everything is essentially set. All I have to do is make sure that everyone's happy. Answer 400 emails every day and buy some watermelons, right? I mean, so now now the you know, the cat, the the die is cast. The you know, now things are moving.
SPEAKER_01I love it. I love it.
Stress Curve And Final Prep
SPEAKER_01All right, so first first big question what is the excitement level to get to showcase? Because obviously this race has been around a few years now. Unfortunately, last year you had to call it because of wildfires, but this year is the first year it's gonna be displayed on an international stage, and then on top of that, you know, like what does it mean to you to get to showcase this area, showcase, you know, uh just this beautiful location to an international field and to the world skunner stage and really the world in general, because they'll be watching.
SPEAKER_00I mean, perfect softball question. I appreciate it. I'm gonna take a massive swing and and you know, kick it out of the park. Yeah. Um, no, this is the dream. This is for me the dream. I um wanted that. Um, you know, we we talk so much in our sport about grassroots and community-driven. And the event is still organized by me and my friends, my family. Um, my wife plays a huge part in it. My daughter is gonna be the age station, uh, my sister-in-law is gonna um manage the age station. It is still very much a family affair, so nothing has changed, which you know, even in at UTMB, I mean, they don't they're not hiring professional age station crew to come in, you know. It is so the people on the ground will always be the community. But the possibility of having people run your race that fly in from literally all over the world, right? Being able to show them the trails, being able to welcome them, be a great host is you know what I live for. I absolutely um love this. Um, like you know, I'm thinking about very practical things like in my Bree race briefing, I need to be smart about the little inside quibs and jokes because there are people who are not going to be um speaking English as their you know first language. I mean, I don't even, but uh in a sense, right? You you gotta be now think a little bit more about um people and in and and and them feeling not just like they are running their own neighborhood race and being able to
Putting Big Creek On The World Stage
SPEAKER_00make them comfortable and welcome and excited about these trails and that mountain and the community is is for me absolute an absolute thrill. That's what I set out to do.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing. I mean, I think just from just off the I have a theory here, and this is and I've heard this played around a few times. I'm a big proponent of it. I think one of the locations when they start proposing the 2029 worlds, I think one of the like the locations for bid should be the Olympic Peninsula, in my opinion. I think this is a great, I know it's I don't how you know how you would do the infrastructure, uh just because of the you know, but it's not that far from Seattle. And I think it truly is one of the most beautiful places that is not that far from an airport that you could hold an international race, which we're you're getting to show now. So this is good this could be the typecast uh for you know something like that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I love that you think in that in in that direction. I'm thinking of the practical nuts and bolts on this. And I can't really think that far ahead. Um you know, that doesn't mean that I don't want to believe in it, but um that just feels I don't want to be the I don't want to be the host restaurant, let's just say that. No, I I I don't know. I you know, I I get your overarching idea. The Olympic Peninsula is beautiful. Um and you to be quite honest, I just before we started calling, I got off the phone with um the National Forest for a couple of things. And you know, we just have an incredible, great relationship. So I think we are um we are on the way there to make to to to make this a possibility, practically, unlike my brain is now see it working out, but who knows? Maybe you never know. You never know.
SPEAKER_01You never know. You never know.
What The Skyrunner Team Brings
SPEAKER_01All right, so let's let's switch into Skyrunner. Uh some of the Skyrunner questions, just because I'm curious about the nuts and bolts and how this works, especially from an RD perspective. Will they come in like early to like play play a role and set up and to do all this stuff? Like, what what did they do? Is what I'm trying to understand. What do they do?
SPEAKER_00Hey guys, hey Etienne, what do you actually do? You know what? They're basically um they're coming in early and they're coming with the full team. They're really not phoning um this in, and then they know that the US location is important as a first time back on the um circuit and stuff. And so there's going to be um a big brand play with Smeral. They're gonna bring the entire team in. There's gonna be some photo shoots that happen around this as well. Um and so they're gonna be busy sort of taking care of themselves, um, which is good because I've got my team and I know what I need to do. Um and um what what's nice, and this is sort of maybe like most of focus on the runner and not so much sort of the um the backroom sausage is that I think they're really helping on making these couple races that are happening Saturday and Sunday into a full weekend, right? I think for folks who are coming out and want this to be a destination event and booked two nights of camping and are sitting in a campground not really knowing what to do, right? Um they they're gonna be able to take care of a whole oh take advantage of a whole bunch of things that I myself wouldn't have been able to organize on the first year. And so being able for them to come in and round out um sort of the offerings of engagement activations, uh I mean, you know, like fun activities. I think we'll be will be fun, right? It I think we'll be cool.
SPEAKER_01Talk
The Full Weekend Plan For Runners
SPEAKER_01about that. Like what uh what like what what will be happening? So obviously we have the sky race, we've got a shorter race in the forest loop, you've got the trail running film festivals. Well, what what should guests that are listening to this trying to get hyped up, uh, especially athletes and guests listening to this, what what can they expect from the weekend aside from just a really challenging and aesthetic course?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I mean, you know, we are basically gonna have an elite athlete presentation during bib pickup on Friday, which you know sort of had me sort of rethink uh how I think about the weekend. Um, because Friday campers arrive, and so they're gonna be in the campground and they're going to um be um you know picking up their bibs whenever they're settled in and stuff like that. And so we'll have a shakeout run then on Friday already with Meryl and you know shoe demo, and we have an elite presentations with um um with the elites that are gonna gonna be there. And so I think that will sort of kick off the Friday, and then the race starts at seven, so we're not really doing much um in the in the evening, right? But then races in the morning and then in the evening we have um prize-giving ceremony and a meet and greet with the Merrill athletes. There's gonna be a happy hour where Merrill's gonna provide food and drinks for everyone. Um, we hired a chef to come out and flip burgers for us so that I don't have to do it, which is nice. Um, so you know, we'll have foods and food and drink uh there, and that will sort of lead into the um film festival. That is obviously you know dusk, right when it's dark enough, that we can show it. We'll have s'mores, we have a fire going, we'll have um, I don't know, popcorn, we have, you know, uh so I think that that will be fun. Um and will really sort of allow people to think about staying full night, uh full nights and two nights and take advantage of the entire weekend and then you know, forest loop, 10k the next day. There's several people who run both. There are people who volunteer on Saturday and then run um on Sunday. So I think um I think it will be fun to sort of round this out. And you know, I mean, I I I I know what can be, right? Um, but we're sort of in this like tiny minuscule step from a community event that four years ago charged $25 an entry fee and didn't have an aid station to um now a race that because it's on the World Circuit sort of wants to compare itself to Broken Arrow, but I mean it's still just me and my family running this thing, right? I don't have a giant operation yet, right? And so the questions of like, mmm, you should do a VK on Friday. I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And at some point we'll get the capacity to organize that, and maybe you should do this. I'm like, yes, put it on the list, but not this year, and I can manage it all, right? So there's a limit of like what one can do, and the limit we've maxed out for this weekend, and I think we'll be fantastic.
Growth Without Losing The Quirks
SPEAKER_01How do you and on the piggyback of that question or of that of that statement? Like, how do how do you still stay true to you and strike this balance between a community race, something that started off very nascent, very small, uh, very community vibes, and strike that balance between that and also growing with the growing pains and uh doing all these extra things for it to be a world skyrunner race and all the extra stuff that comes with that and whatever that is.
SPEAKER_00Well, I I got a snarky answer to that. Um, that is I've always loved the races that I'm organizing, they they feel very grassrootsy because I don't have a lot of money to put into them. Like I rather paint my a banner myself than spend eight hundred dollars on a banner that I can't use two years later then or something, right? So I I like keeping expenses low and rather hand making something. But at the same time, I love UTB uh finals and shamuni. I love Broken Arrow, I love Squamish 50, I love these big productions, I think they're fun. I don't get a sense that just because Bip Pickup is a Congo line and you go from one person to the other, that's uh and it and it's not you know, you know, your your aunt sitting over there handing you your bid, that somehow you're losing something, right? I mean I I enjoy these big events. And so the thing that holds me back is literally just the lack of money, right? I mean, sure, I could I could add a live band. I mean, give me a budget, and I turned this into an H ACG festival, right? I mean, I I don't mind going all out. I don't know if you saw, I posted a couple times now on social media the uh wooden um podium sign that I made. I literally have a piece of wood sitting around, and there was a couple days when I had a little bit of a downtime, and I was like, I didn't want to throw it away. I was like, I'm gonna use this for something. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna take a saw and chop it around at it and see where it goes, right? And that's gonna be the sign now, right? And I think that you know, it's not commissioned by uh, you know, to an artist and craftsman who can do something tremendous, right? But I think it works, and I think that balance, if we keep that balance, um, then we'll keep
Foot Care Sponsor Break
SPEAKER_00guys.
SPEAKER_01How's your feet? Like seriously, yeah. How's uh how are your feet doing? Um I'm sure if you're listening to this, you're a runner or an athlete of some kind, uh, in one way or another. And as most athletes do, everybody struggles with injury one way or another. And foot care is like one of the most important things when it comes to injury mitigation or just dealing with injuries in general. Um, everything from planar fasciitis, peroneal issues, uh, a lot of people deal with blisters in the sport. Uh kind of the list goes on. It's a great opportunity for me to talk about our partner, Cetus US. Um, I've been partnering with them for a couple of years now. And man, the products have just gone such a long way for me as an athlete personally. Um couple months back, I'd been dealing with some peroneal issues and some planter issues on my left foot, and uh got hooked up with some of the Cetus insoles. Um the trail three feet, and man, it went such a long way in helping me rehab that foot and just helped a ton. Um, on top of that, big fan of the socks and big believer in the socks as well. I use them all the time because they're amazing. Uh, but in all seriousness, I'm sure you've seen like Jim Walmsley, Hidden Hawks, and then you know, some of the best women in the sport, like Robin Lesh, um, or even on the ski side, uh Jesse Diggins rocking uh the seat as feet. And um for me personally, it's the run anatomic comfort. I absolutely love those socks. Um, it's got reinforced protection, it's got a great grip strip to keep the sock from kind of moving within uh the shoe. It's breathable and it's got great protection, especially for technical trails for your heels and your toes. And uh above all else, it's breathable, so it's not gonna stink too bad. Uh, my wife definitely gives uh thumbs up when it comes to that. So I don't have two stinky feet or stinky socks. So if you haven't already, go online, check out CDUS.us, and if you find something you like, use code Steep Stuff. It's good for one use only. It's gonna get you 20% off your car and uh giving you guys the hookup. So hope you enjoy it. Check it out, CDUS.us insoles and socks, they've got the best in the game.
SPEAKER_00The excitement for ourselves to want to manage this, right? I mean, if I feel like I would all of a sudden manage a cookie cutter McDonald's and only order stuff from and I don't, I don't know, you know, uh pre-manufactured and stuff, then I probably wouldn't have fun doing it. But as long as I can still come up with fun ideas like that, right? I mean, like I mean, our finisher. I you've seen the skull logo that we have, the skull design. Um, my wife drew that, and she just spent the last couple of weeks um carving it out of a block and we're block printing it onto tote bags, and so you know, podium finishers are getting a tote bag, um, with you know, that skull on it, right? And I don't know. I think if we can still keep room for quirky things like that, then um then I think we'll stay excited of managing event even if it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, and and I'm and this is not me projecting or saying that you want it to be a certain way in any way, or but what I am trying to say is that like you look at races, like for instance, like one of my favorite races that I've never raced, and I hope to this year is Sky Race Des Masons. And I've had plenty of friends go over and do that race. And it yes, it is on the world skyrunner stage, yes, it is hyper competitive, but at the same time, it has a from what I've understood, it's got this small community vibe and feel to it. Uh, there's just some old dude that walks with a shotgun and just shoots it before the race goes off. That whole thing seems kind of cool. It just has like a more like aesthetic community vibe to it. It's not this big thing with like you know, painting the gondola orange and stuff like that. Not that that's wrong. I don't see an issue with that. But what I am trying to say is that like you have your own thing and your own vibe and your own aesthetic, and that's what makes the race so special, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, you know, and I mean this is also something that I'm excited to showcase to the world, and I think that's what folks remember, right? You do have to make sure you have enough bathrooms for runners, right? I mean, there's certain logistical things that you have to have buttoned up. You can't use the excuse of, oh, it's just a homegrown community event in order to logistically fuck up, right? You have to make sure the course is marked well. There's certain things where I'm not saying that, oh, you know, by me just sort of like fucking around in the garage, I'm allowing myself to phone it in, right? You you have to show up. But at the same time, who wants a fucking, you know, metal metal, metal metal made in China that looks just like any other metal, right? Right. Um like the the little quirky things is what people remember, the little unique and local things is what people remember, right? Um and uh there needs to be room in the insanity of building an event. There needs to be room, a creative room where you're not just executing a playbook where you can sit back and say, hmm, let's do that. Can we do that? Can we reach out to this person and collaborate? Can we find a way of doing something, right? And I think we're losing something if we only um, you know, if we only cookie cutter in everything. And I'm not saying anybody is, but I think that's when I would lose excitement of actually doing it, right?
SPEAKER_01I mean it goes something to a small, not that I'm and I'm not hating on anybody. I'm I'm trying to be well behaved for this episode. But I uh But what I am trying to say is Why am I here for? I'm not here for well-behave, James. We're only 17 minutes in, man. I gotta I gotta warm up the audience a little bit. No, uh like for instance, I was at Broken Arrow this year uh in a in a media capacity, and I was really let down by the like everything was amazing, but the finisher medals bothered me a little bit just because they were they changed them to like some metal finisher medals where they used to like have these like really cool wooden ones that were like very aesthetically pleasing, and I was like, Oh, dude, you just you just order them like from like you know, I I don't know, I don't know what the the process went through for it, but like that little detail, uh like you could lose people with that, you know, it's something so small, but it's still I mean it's still a great race, still an amazing thing.
SPEAKER_00But there's a little faces do matter. There's a similar example, right? I mean, Igo Ultra Trail um used to, and I think even after their acquisition with UTMB, they did this for a while, but for a while they had a local stonemason collect rocks from the bottom of the Iger North Face and put these rock put drilled a hole into the rock, and the metal was just a rock from the bottom of the Iger North Face. So cool. I mean it's Is so freaking cool, right? I mean, I want to run this race just for the metal, and whoever runs a race for the freaking medal, nobody cares about the metal, right? And so I think um if you if you lose this, and I understand the logistics, right? I mean, I go ultra trail all the distances, they have like what now three and a half thousand runners, right? I mean, I don't know how they can do three and a half thousand medals. It's a lot of rocks, dude. Right, it's a it's a lot of rocks, right? Are they gonna empty the Grindelwald uh valley because all the rocks are gone? I don't know what that looks like. So I understand sort of the challenges of growth um um and the realities around that, right? But I do I do think you have to find ways of keeping the quirkiness, the uniqueness of the event. Sort of that's what people are gonna talk about. That's what people are gonna be sharing on social media. Nobody's gonna say, hey, I just ran Beast of the Beat Crick. It was great, how well it was organized. It we everything worked exactly as advertised. Who writes that? Nobody has nobody's Yelp reviews of races, luckily.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I could dude actually that would be really funny. That's I'm gonna put this out there right now. Like there might be there should be a website.
SPEAKER_00No, no. It's Yelp is like a race to the bottom. Every race is gonna be like a 3.2 star. Yeah. I d I DNF because I had a blister. This race sucked. One star.
SPEAKER_01Or it's like no one told me there was gonna be 3,000 feet of vertical.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Do you do do I want to be the race director who has to respond to all of that shit?
SPEAKER_01No, thank you. Absolutely not. Oh god.
Course Bottlenecks And Passing Etiquette
SPEAKER_01Um so when you're looking at the race and the course itself, I mean, dude, the chorus is just so aesthetic. It's so like up Mount Eleanor, that whole selection for that area. I do have a logistical question for you. And I was I was thinking about this because I do recognize part of that chorus or that section is like an out and back. How does that work with like your I don't know, your Jackson Coles of the world running a 430 mile down there versus like your middle of the pack kind of coming up and so we don't have collisions? Like how how does that strategically like work?
SPEAKER_00I use that. I'm less worried about the middle of the packers because I think the super crushers, they're gonna be already through the most critical areas before the mid-packers are even reaching. I am more worried about literally the last half mile up to the top and half mile back down, right? Where it's just an out and back. And so I think a lot of top of top runners will hit other top runners who are just like 10 minutes slower or something like that, right? On the way down, and I think that's going to be critical. It's going to be difficult, right? That is something that I told Discover in a World Series to relay to the elites, and that's something that I'm very um strongly mentioning in my race briefing. They have to be kind. There's a practical piece where they can absolutely not course cut. There are some sections where, you know, maybe in the non-US absolutely stay on the trail kind of mentality, people would be like, oh, look, this is busy over there. Let me just like plow through these wildflowers here, right? Um, and I'm absolutely stressing that this cannot happen from a larger environmental and consequential permit point of view, right? Um, because you know, we'd get shut down very quick if that would become a thing. Um, but yeah, this this is going to be a little bit of a of a tricky situation. So um, yeah, you know, folks have to have just have to figure out a way to deal with that. You know, but think about it. I mean, look at the Skyrunner courses. There are look at Western states, there's only so many people that can cross the river at it at a time, right? I mean, there are moments at every race course when folks have to be mindful of each other and have to take sort of their sort of you know ego zone, you know, racing it all course a little bit aside and saying, hey, look, there are other humans in this world, let's pay attention for for a moment, right? It's it just has to work that way. And I mean, maybe we learned that we've reached maximum capacity, or we really learned that it's no issue at all. Or we get super creative and decide we're gonna do the winter route up next year and bypass this whole thing, and then we have ropes and helmets all of a sudden. Dude, that would be sick. Why don't we do that?
SPEAKER_01Shh, shh, shh shh. Oh my god. All right, it's a good little tease. I think the audience.
SPEAKER_00I've thought about this, but also like not. Oh
Switchbacks Rules And Trail Impact
SPEAKER_00my gosh.
SPEAKER_01I I do I've a story slash I don't really think it's a question. It's more of a statement slash a story, and it kind of piggybacks on this on the switchback cutting thing. Um so it was this is years ago. This might be decades ago. It was the first time the Skyrunner series came to the Pikes Peak Marathon, and they had this very issue where the Euros came over and they cut the switchbacks on Above Tree Line. And this was the year, I believe, what is his name? Why does his name shouldn't escape me? Um, Galen Burrell. It was the year Galen Burrell, I think, actually got the win because they disqualified a bunch of Euros for cutting the switchbacks above tree line. That I feel like that has to be a conversation because in a lot of world skyrunner races, you can cut the switchbacks, it's not a problem. But the United States, because we have one, because of permitting, two, a lot of us like um you know, ecological uh from erosion perspective, and because of the alpine tundra, things like that, like you can't be doing that. Uh how is that conversation?
SPEAKER_00I've already I've already applied for a um um a pardon at the White House for switchback hunting. Shut up, Nikolina. I think this you there are very few few rules in this race. There are very few few things that have to be really serious considered. But it's also sky racing, and I think um, you know I brought up sort of this other culture mentality in different environments. But maybe skyrunning is a little bit different. The folks who are really coming to run the circuit because they know they're running all over the world and they're running in very, very extreme situations. There are multiple races where helmets are required. There are rope sections, there are high-altitude environments and stuff. So I think the runners who are coming to out to run sky races, they are aware that they're not just running on proverbial California carpet and can sort of have an extended cross-country run. They know that they're running in alpine environments. Um and so my hope is that that is enough of a sort of an impetus that the folks who are already coming out, they are sort of aware that you know the environment does type of race. Requires a little bit more respect from the terrain and fellow competitors towards fellow competitors and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just it's interesting because uh it's it's a cultural conversation too, just because a lot of sky like skyrunning in general, it's just a different, it's a lot of times it's the the fastest point to get you to the top and the fastest point to get you to the bottom, and and it's just different in a lot of other places. So here it's it's a little more nuanced.
SPEAKER_00So for me, it's a growth conversation, right? It's like we're gonna have you know, I don't know, 70% more runners than uh previous uh um year, right? There are changes, there are things that people are going to be um need to be aware of. We'll put more signage up. Um we've had years where people blew through um uh uh trails that they shouldn't be going through, not from an environmental point of view, but just from what the way the route was, right? And so we're gonna shore that up a little bit more, right? Um But also I think I don't know, in longer races there is a little bit more ambiguity of what happens if you do go the wrong trail, right? I mean, you're not completely losing the race if you're like 10 minutes out and back or something, and so it's a little bit more relaxed. Um, but therefore runners need to just be more aware, right? I mean, run wrong turn and the race is over for them, right? Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, it's uh it's good stuff.
Drones Starlink And Media Limits
SPEAKER_01Um, I'm excited to follow along. It's gonna be fun. Any uh how is Skyrunner gonna be doing some of the media around? Like I know like there'll be I'll be putting some stuff out there, but like in race, they'll be putting out a bunch of uh I'm sure drone shots and stuff like that. How could are they able to do that? Like, I know because it's like Olympic National Park is close and there's wilderness areas. How do you deal with the the drone situation?
SPEAKER_00So we we have drone drone permitting, so because it's in a national forest, they can't fly beyond the summit um of Eleanor, so anything sort of dropping north towards the uh Mount Olympus to a most interior is uh national park, and so they really shouldn't lose a drone back there, that would be bad. Um, but they essentially the entire slope from the campground up towards the um the mountain, they can fly drones, and so um I think the bigger issue is the Starlink situation, right? Um we'll have some Starlinks, but some of them are set up for communications, and some of them are set up for um search and rescue and timing and stuff, right? And so we can't um dedicate uh uh Starlink from our end to sort of live sharing stuff. And um, and so I'm relying on Skyrunhood. And they are bringing their own Starlink to do stuff with what that's gonna look like in race, I I genuinely don't know. I just had a conversation with Aaron on Trail Talk and Robin about the whole live streaming thing on top of that, which would be your follow-up questions. And um I I just don't know uh the logistics around these short races, if it's really worth it. Depends on what I mean, yeah, it depends on where it's at, but I mean I mean, I know I have a very, very strong bias that I don't like wasting time on a weekend um for on a live stream, um, unless it's something like really massive.
Why Livestreaming Rarely Pencils Out
SPEAKER_00And so I I don't know. I don't really watch short live streams. At Broken Air, the only live stream I watched was the uh Ascent because it was Friday morning. I knew it was over in 45 minutes, and it was Friday morning, right? It was like, okay, what am I doing Friday morning? Might as well put a live stream, right? Saturday, Sunday. I didn't turn on because it's weekend, I've got better stuff to do, right? And so I don't know what it would cost, but I'm not gonna put right considering what it costs to put a race on, right? To print the t-shirts and the metals and the bibs and and everything, right? And then you put the cost of a live stream on it. I mean, this is like plopping an elephant on top of a mouse, right? It's so insane. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I sorry, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01I'm no, I was just gonna say, I I I agree with you that the like the math isn't there yet, but like I think a lot of the reason Broken Arrow got as big as it did, and I think the rut had a lot of traction with this as well. The two years that they did do it is that they put the live stream on it. I think it attracted a lot of people and helped grow the footprint of the race. And I think Broken Arrow has had a few years where they did do it and it was and it was popular. As far as people tuning in, I don't know, but like I think with Nike this year, putting that on the Nike YouTube, I think that was huge for them. But I don't know, I didn't watch it because I was there, but but it's expensive as hell.
SPEAKER_00So I think this is almost a conversation that they should you know have when all of this is over. Um because this is sort of my my my running, my run now. I'm having a conversation anyway. But no, for me as a race director, like it essentially what needs to happen, I think, is Skyrunner needs to come and basically say, hey, for 2027, we are live streaming the events and we're just taking care of it, and all you need to do is make sure you print the bibs and you mark the course, right? For me as a race director to on top of it organize my own live stream. Um, outside of doing a shitty job, I can't see the logistics. Like the amount of volunteers I need, the amount of budget that I have. Oh yeah, right? I mean, I totally agree with you. Yeah, and it's like I I don't know why I would triple everything just for the sake of having 300 people, 3,000 people on YouTube write in, where is Sally? I mean, you know, like you're right, I agree. Right? I mean, unless the sponsors are gonna come and pay for it and basically say, but even then, I'd be like, hey, can't you just write me this check and we we do something else instead? Right?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I don't think people understand too the logistics that go into that. Like I was at the Broken Arrow Ascent and uh I spectated the whole thing. And when I got to the top of the ski hill before the race started, uh I was hanging out with Tom Hooper, and we looked to our left and who was there. But Greg Villet, the the guy who runs you know Golden Trail, he has his I'm guessing it's his own business. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't know the Which is in receivership right now in um France. His business for out and okay.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, finish your thought and then Yeah, I was just gonna say like he has got a whole team of like mountain bike dudes with like Starlinks outfitted to their thing, uh out to outfitted to their backs. It's like this whole like expensive kit, and that's and they have cameras on them and the front on the back. It's like a really it's pretty John Wayne. It's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00So I spent TrailCon investigating this. I wrote an article on electric cable car. Folks who listen um can um go on the website and find it. But I've tried to do a little bit of research into that, right? Because we have Mountain Outpost, the only US outfit that um does these kind of live streamings and they're mad busy, they're doing 30 plus events a year, and um they're expensive on one side, and on the other side, they're not even fully equipped, like they don't have e-bikers, right? They don't have um all of these um features that we saw at a broken error and these professionals, right? So then I reached out to my folks that uh contacted UTMB and said, hey, what can we tell when can you tell me about these live streams? And met with folks from UTMB, and UTMB doesn't have its own live stream team, like they are outsourcing this. And they gave me a couple names, one of them is Outdoor Sports Live, is a French company that does that, and they were the ones who came over, did the Broken Arrow live stream, and I think that was Greg Boulet's team. But based on my research translating French business website, it looks like they're going through a business restructuring. So this is not yet a product that has financially um justified itself, it really hasn't, right? And so I'm worried a little bit. We're talking about overextending our sport in this sort of hyper-gross phase that we're in. I'm worried that it it's exactly the live streaming thing that's going to sort of be the piece that's going to see a um a series restructuring, that's a series realignment, right? Um because because I just I I don't see the numbers. But it doesn't make sense to me at this point. I've seen bad live streams where I'm like, what the fuck? Why do I why do I look at three steady cams? Um and that's doing the sport almost a disservice. I've seen really good ones, and even the really good ones. I'm like, why can't you still why don't you still have the editorial capabilities of actually telling a in a good story and knowing what's actually happening in front of your screen? And then you've got the limitations of the logistics, right? I mean the beast cores, three-quarters of the cores, um sure the more boring parts, but they're all in tree cover. We will never get e-bikes onto these national forest trails. They're tree cover, no um um drone is gonna cover the uh catch the runners on these things. So it's only the top part. It's like how do you how do you write a compelling story that you can put on the screen around this race that potentially is done in two and a half hours? Like, I want it, but I don't know what yet.
SPEAKER_01And like I think it just comes back comes back to location, location, location, too. Like broken arrow, for instance, because there's a lot of ski roads, it makes sense for an e-bike, right?
SPEAKER_00And like you can and like the vertical makes sense and is legally allowable, right? Right, right. Those are those are the two pieces.
SPEAKER_01100%. Whereas, yeah, something like uh yeah, and it really just comes back on the location too. And and I don't know. Like I uh I don't know, I watched Western States a little bit this year and I watched Hard Rock, and it's been cool to see those two develop, like as far as like their just overall product of what they're providing to the audience, and I think those are solid. Um yeah, I think on the short trail side, I think the short trail side is probably like for vertical kilometers, is so much more marketable though. Like although during UTMB weekend, I'm glued to the I'm glued to the TV, dude. I ain't leaving. Like I'm I'm watching, I've got the popcorn, breakfast, lunch, dinner, I'm there.
SPEAKER_00So when it when it comes to numbers, the big outliers are actually the longer races, right? They are the ones who make more sense. And I think my running theory is that you know the way folks watch Twitch streams where somebody plays Minecraft for 48 hours straight or something like that. I think the background noise of a sort of coca-dona, continuous live stream, I think attracts that crowd because it's the same thing. Yeah, short race really requires and demands your attention and it needs to really capture every moment because if you miss the most important moment of somebody overtaking or whatever, right, then uh you fucked it up. And so me going back, so this is my personal subjective way of looking at it. What attracted attracted me to wanting to be a race director is that I ran races and I looked at the bibs and uh course markings and everything that a race director sort of puts out and lets me experience, and I'm like, this is amazing, I love it, and I can see how to apply my own spin on things. I can care, not more, I'm not saying I'm gonna be better, but I liked my spin. I know how I want my um my bibs to look like, I know how I want my course to be marked and stuff like that. And so I that inspired me. And I have not yet, after years of live streams, I've not watched a single live stream, I've not experienced a live stream. I mean, I ran OCC and there were some family members far and wide who watched me cross the finish line and I made a big fucking deal about it and stuff, right? And so it's like so I experience moments that are utterly brilliant, right? Yeah, I'm not saying it's but I'm not inspired yet. Like I'm not sitting there and I'm like, damn, how can we set this up? Um I I want to solve that problem. I haven't figured it out.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting. I I do I think you make some great points there, and you're right. I think there's a lot of opportunity for growth. And I think as technology evolves, we'll be able to get better, there'll be a better product to be able to put together more cameras, more drones, more this, more that. But then we also have the limitations of location of is this in you know wilderness, is this in natural forest land? Like, what do we do with that? And you just can't do anything with that just because of the permitting. So yeah, I I agree. I think it's interesting though. Um, and I I don't know, I don't have like a strong opinion one way for it or against it. I think if you're gonna put a product out there, like with anything, put a good product out there, or at least try to. Um, but I do think, in some degrees, like I think the broken arrow one made like makes sense, right? It gets it out to the world. Yeah, I was impressed with that. Um, I this kind of goes to the overall
TrailCon Broken Arrow And Inspiration
SPEAKER_01arching question. I know you kind of you were at Trelcon. I'm sure you caught some of the broken arrow stuff. Um, what did You think this year? Like it was that because I have some some opinions on it, but I was more so impressed than I was anything else. I was like, wow, this is they're really like really trying to activate here. This is kind of crazy.
SPEAKER_00So, I mean, to be fair, I only arrived on Monday, so AC ACG had all sort of rolled up the carpets already a little bit, right? So I saw the um full display of what what um TrailCon is being put on. And I had a great time. I mean, I loved TrailCon. I experienced Western States for the first time, and so um it was inspiring. Um great connections and stuff. So I mean, I think all of those things were were really cool. Um so that part I love, but I gotta admit, I only caught the tail end of what ACG and I I again I did talk to Brandon, and he basically said that insinuated, I probably should say more fairly that he was very clear with ACG that Broken Era has its own culture. I ran Broken Era in 2018 or so, like second year it was uh out there. They have its own community, they have its own branding, they don't want ACG to come in and take over the whole thing. And so uh I think there was some sort of adaptation of toning down maybe a little bit about how much ACG wanted to do, right? Um it didn't stop me from sending links to Merrill and said, look what ACG is doing. That's what we're doing at Beast, right? Uh rightfully so. Rightfully so. Well, I mean, I mean, coming coming back to this, right? I it's it's about inspiration. This is what um it's not so much if it's good or bad, it's about are you inspired, right? You want to go to these events and you want to be inspired, not just not just entertained, but you want to be inspired. If you run a race or just spectate and you come home and you're like, well, this was fun, right? I mean, your next training run looks dumb, right? I mean, you you want to be inspired even if you're not a race director. For me, as a race director, I go to these things and I want to be inspired, right? And so the the thing that inspires me with the Sky Runner World series is their their summary videos, right? I mean, those little highlight videos uh summarizing what the race is like. Yeah, you know, we've talked about now for 20 minutes about the live stream. That's what excites me. I want to see what they're doing there, right? Been seeing get getting beast displayed on that scale with that level of quality, that's what I'm really looking forward to and seeing. And hopefully it inspires me to say, wow, they've showcased my mountain, my race in a way that I've never seen before, you know, next time we're uh doing something different or you know, putting off flags on the corner or whatever, right?
SPEAKER_01100%. What what so besides that, this is actually uh just off of that, like what does inspire you? Like how what has inspired you for this course? Like, is there any other races you've been to or other events that you've done or things like that that has maybe played a role in any inspiration for this this year?
SPEAKER_00I mean, you know, I mean, Beast itself was my second trail race that I've ever run. I mean, it is my home mountain. I've been up on that mountain, I don't know, I don't know, the dozens of times now. And I think there are two pieces that excite me, right? On one side, you it is, I feel like on the upper course, and the very sweet Mount Rose Trail crew has sort of cleaned up the uh course quite a bit to the point that it's a little bit tamer, a lot more steps, definitive steps, and not just loose scree in corner and in sections. Um but it does feel like a mountain race, it does feel exposed in areas that you don't experience in a lot of race courses. Um I mean, you know, broken era. I mean, we've been talking about broken era so much now, right? But that um stairway to heaven section, right? And that is so exposed and so funny, it's so defined. Broken uh Beast doesn't have that, but I it does feel in sections rockier and um wilder than anything on um the broken on broken arrow course. And I hope that that is something that um runners will take away from running this course because yeah, it's not at altitude, it's not you know over glaciers and stuff, right? So we need to showcase a different way of sky running, right? Very cool.
SPEAKER_01I think that's all I got. I don't know. I'm trying to come up with some some new questions. I think uh might have tapped me out on this. I like it. Anything you have to add? I don't want to keep you all day, but anything you gotta add to as we wind this one down.
Racing Plans Life Constraints And Burnout
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, what are you racing this year? Are you doing any races besides uh race directing?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, you know, I just spent at length chatting with the race director for the Sky Masters race in Spain, and he sent me an invitation, and so I'm like, uh I want to, but um a it wouldn't murder me, and two, it would um I don't know if I can justify it. I I don't know. I'm still sort of recovering from um a broken big toe, and so I've been so mad busy that I'm true, yeah. I I need to see um what what I'm gonna do this year. I haven't put anything on my on my calendar so far. It's it's this year is senior year for my kids, high school, college, and it's it's sort of a little bit of a of a crazy transition year where it's a little bit difficult to just say, like you know, I like to go to Europe and do something, but without the family, it's a little unfair, and I get some evil glare taking the family with their all in like you know, senior mode, and so it's it's a little bit tough. So I logistically haven't really figured out anything. Yeah. Fair enough. Life, man. A lot of life life, yeah. A lot a lot of life. As soon as um Beast is over, I'm basically putting my film festival hat back on. I mean, 27 is already rolling, film submissions are already coming in. I need to make a decision on who the post artist is gonna be for 27 um and and stuff. So yeah, it's sort of weird. Um what what did they say? La, do the job that you love, and you never have to work a day in your life or something like that. But the problem is then you also don't have time to actually do anything what's fun because you just I love what I'm doing. I'm not complaining, but I'm doing so much trail running while sitting on my desk that I don't have time for trail running anymore.
SPEAKER_01Dude, I feel you on that. My God. It's uh yeah, I think about that a lot. I'm like, oh, I just wasted like three hours of my life creating a post for Instagram. I'm like, I really should just go be running right now. This is a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00I hear you.
Hospitality As The Real Mission
SPEAKER_00I hear you. You know, here's where it comes down to. Um perhaps we can leave on this on this note since you're giving me the microphone. Putting these races on is for me hospitality. I love bringing people together. And that works on multiple levels, right? That works on the very most basic level of a runner, you know, pops, gives me their money on ultra sign up and gets a bib and comes and runs my race, right? But it's also about the volunteers and how I bring them together and give them, you know, an excitement and something, something fun to do for the weekend. Obviously, I massively appreciate what they do, right? Um, and it will be fun for them. Many of them are going to be camping with us, and so it this is fun. I love being a host to Meryl, a product team that's coming out, elite athletes that are coming out. Um, you know, the the elite athletes from the US who have been committing to this skyrunning circuit and didn't have a race in in their own country, right? And then the international athletes that are going to be coming out experiencing that. I love working with um the Skyrunner World Series team and sort of trying to figure out how we build can build this really together, right? How they have the bigger picture in mind of how this whole this whole series fits together and how it needs to be communicated, that people getting points, and now they're sort of um uh qualifying for the finals. And how do you sort of promote this then from a media point of view? How do you tell the story? And so that's what inspires me. If I bring more people together and get them excited to, on a very basic level, run trails and on the more complicated level, build their own businesses. My best friend has been the guy who's doing all the photos that we so far have to call. He's still coming out, he's gonna do media for me and capturing the event and um giving him a chance of connecting with the Skyrunner media team will be super cool. And I love that, right? Being able to sort of take a yeah, a local photographer and let them let him sort of dance with you know the big global players is fun. And so I I don't know. My my I always walk by my neighbor who sits on this porch and is in between jobs right now, and um he told me a few weeks ago that you know he used to be a cook, and then I was like, hey man, we need somebody to flip some burgers. Why don't I um get Meryl to pay for you to come out and you are actually professional in charge and you know make sure that the burgers are fully cooked through and stuff, right? And so, you know, I'm gonna be able to bring him out now and pay him some money to actually do his his thing. This is what I love doing. This is why I do this.
SPEAKER_01Man, good answer. Thank you. Thank you for what you do, thank you for putting on this amazing event. Uh, and thank you for what you do for the community. I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. It's always fun chatting. This time was wasn't was not as snarky as it sometimes can be. I was a good boy today. I told you I'd be a good boy. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
