The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
Carmen Pelar Graves, Pre Beast of Big Creek Interview
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The fastest way to fall back in love with running might be to become a beginner again. Carmen Graves knows what it feels like to chase mastery: high school sprinter, college soccer and track standout, then a decade-long professional grind in the steeplechase that took her to US Trials. After years of the same build-ups and the same track-season patterns, she wanted something new, so she stepped onto the trails and embraced the discomfort of learning from scratch.
We talk through what really changes when you go from track to trail running and skyrunning: pacing that’s dictated by vertical gain, the mental focus of technical terrain, and the surprisingly hard skill of switching from hiking to running mid-climb. Carmen shares what she learned at the Broken Arrow Skyrace, why going out hot can wreck the final climbs, and how she’s adjusting her training for Beast of Big Creek. We also get into her strengths so far, including speed on flatter trail courses, confidence on downhills, and the areas she’s targeting most as she builds mountain-specific fitness.
Carmen opens up about nutrition and why fueling has felt like a smooth transition, plus how small systems like gel flasks can make race day cleaner and simpler. She lays out a smart long-term plan too: sharpen in sub-ultra distances first, chase races like the Cirque Series and USATF Trail Championships, then move toward ultras when the foundation is solid. We also dive into what it’s like joining the Merrell athlete team, her go-to shoes, and how mentorship from Andy Wacker helps guide a new chapter.
If you’re curious about transitioning from track and field to trail racing, training for vert, or rebuilding motivation after years of competing, this conversation is packed with honest lessons and practical takeaways. Subscribe, share this with a running friend, and leave a rating and review so we can keep telling these athlete stories.
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Welcome And Quick Subscribe Request
SPEAKER_01This is the Steam Stuff Past. What's up, guys? Uh hey, before we get started, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're listening to this on, please hit that subscribe or follow button, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. Those subscriptions go a super long way in being able to keep the podcast going and allowing me to continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes and also do some of the race coverage and all the good stuff that we've been doing over the last few years. And also, if you haven't already, please give us a rating and a review if you haven't. Yeah, let us know what you guys think about the podcast and hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in. Sweet.
Carmen’s Path From Sprinting To Steeple
SPEAKER_01All right, Carmen Graves. Welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_00It's going good. Yeah. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm so excited to uh finally have you on. I know this was uh this actually worked out perfect because you're signed up for Beast of Big Creek. You're also a Merrill athlete, so there's a lot to talk about. We could kind of, I guess we'll kind of fold in a Beast of Big Creek pre-race interview. But I think before then, I'd love to get to know you more and learn more about your running background. I know you have like a track and field background and all this really cool stuff. So maybe give me give me the elevator pitch on your background and where you come from.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, well, I started track in high school. Um, it's been quite the journey though. In high school, I ran the 200, the 400, so I identified as a sprinter. I also did the triple jump, went to stays for the triple jump, um, and then really got recruited um for soccer in college. So I did soccer and track um at Roanoke College. It's a D3 college in Virginia. And there I kind of um just kept the dual athlete vibe going, like just did soccer and track the whole time. But then I started doing the 800 and found some success there. Um, but I didn't start the steeple chase, um, which was my main event um as a professional athlete until after college. Um, so had some success in the 800 in college, went to national champs, um, got all American five times, um, and then I didn't really know what I wanted to do after college. Um, so kind of uh, you know, kept in touch with my old coach, and he started coaching me in the 5K, and then we tried the steeple and ended up going to US Champs. And I did the steeple off and on for 10 years. So um, so I guess it's been 10 years since I made my first trials in 2016. Um, so went to the trials in that, um, went to the trials 2020, and then 2024 is kind of when I decided I should probably do something else. Um, steeple chase was getting a little stale, training was stale, going to Eugene every year was um a little bit repetitive. Um, so I wanted something new. So started doing trails and fell in love with it.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Well, welcome. This is so cool. I love when uh personally, I don't know. I find like steeplers make the best trail runners for some reason. I don't know what it is, but yeah, you guys have like just really good crossover. I mean, Ali Mack, I mean there's so many. Uh I think Rachel Tomaichak, Grayson Murphy, uh all steeplers. So you join an amazing group of women that uh seem to do really well on the trails, which is pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's just uh it's kind of similar to trail running. It's um, you know, a lot of uh acceleration, changing of speeds, um, you need to stay focused, obviously, um, but also be able to um, you know, get into a good rhythm, but be able to break the rhythm. Uh so I think there is some crossover. And I think also the types of people that choose a steeplechase, they are looking for some type of thrill. Um so I think it's it's a perfect um transition for me.
Soccer Roots And Travel Energy
SPEAKER_01That's so cool. Not to go too far back in time, but what position did you play as soccer as a soccer player?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I kind of switched around, but my main position was outside midfielder mostly because I could run. I was fast. Um, so uh dabbled in um some forward too. Um, but in college, uh, my main position was midfielder.
SPEAKER_01Nice. So you've been following the World Cup at all?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. Yes, I'm so pumped. Yeah. Um, I was actually in Mexico City when um Mexico was playing. So that was so crazy. I didn't go to the actual game. Um, it was like 40 minutes outside of the city, but uh man, definitely got definitely got all the good energy from them.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I was following some of your your travels uh recently and I was like, oh, Mexico City looks so much fun. I want to go do the volcanoes as well, like Pico de Orizaba and some of uh just the volcanoes further south. Yeah, Mexico. I'm going in March and I'm so stoked to go. My sister's getting married out there, and I'm like, yes, say less. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, say less. So very
The Leap Into Trail Racing
SPEAKER_01cool. Um trail running. So how has it been making the transition so far? I mean, obviously, running at the highest level as a steepler is a different feel, a different vibe. I know you just competed at Broken Arrow and had a great result there. What has it been like kind of doing that crossover and that transition, if you will?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's been so fun and also really challenging. Um I have been kind of just throwing myself out there and learning as I go. Um, I connected with the trail team and Andy Wacker, and he's been really great with helping guide me in the right direction. Um, he brought up uh Broken Arrow. I had never heard of it, and we decided to train for that. Um, I think I was in a little bit over my head. I didn't realize that it was gonna be so much climbing and um something that I really need to work on in training, which I left Broken Arrow feeling really motivated because I'm like, there's so much I can work on. Um so, but like the whole transition has been super fun. Um, workouts have been different. I do like to dabble in the track a little bit just to maintain my speed. Um, but yeah, going out on trail runs have been great. And then just like trying to work on downhill tech stuff, um, it's all been super, super um intriguing. And um I just love learning all the new stuff and um everything's super new. So I've been really enjoying it.
SPEAKER_01Maybe this is a redundant question, but kind of off of that, like, is it weird being a beginner again? Because, you know, usually in, you know, after you go through all these transitions in sport, soccer, track and field, and then you know, transitioning onto the steeple, and then now you're you're kind of a beginner, but still have all this fitness that transfers to make you really good at this sport.
Foot Care Sponsor Break
SPEAKER_01Guys, how's your feet? Like, seriously, yeah. How's uh how are your feet doing? Um I'm sure if you're listening to this, you're a runner or an athlete of some kind, uh, in one way or another. And as most athletes do, everybody struggles with injury one way or another. And foot care is like one of the most important things when it comes to injury mitigation or just dealing with injuries in general. Um, everything from planar fasciitis, peroneal issues, uh, a lot of people deal with blisters in the sport. Uh kind of the list goes on. It's a great opportunity for me to talk about our partner, Cetus US. Um, I've been partnering with them for a couple years now, and man, the products have just gone such a long way for me as an athlete personally. Um I'd been dealing with some peroneal issues and some planter issues on my left foot, and uh got hooked up with some of the Cetus insoles. Um the trail three feet, and man, it went such a long way in helping me rehab that foot and just helped a ton. Um, on top of that, big fan of the socks and big believer in the socks as well. I use them all the time because they're amazing. Uh, but in all seriousness, I'm sure you've seen like Jim Womsley, Hidden Hawks, and then you know, some of the best women in the sport, like Robin Lesh, um, or even on the ski side, uh Jesse Diggins rocking uh the Cetus feet. And um, for me personally, it's the run anatomic comfort. I absolutely love those socks. Um, it's got reinforced protection, it's got a great grip strip to keep the sock from kind of moving within uh the shoe. It's breathable and it's got great protection, especially for technical trails for your heels and your toes. And uh above all else, it's breathable, so it's not gonna stink too bad. Uh, my wife definitely gives uh thumbs up when it comes to that. So I don't have two stinky feet or stinky socks. So if you haven't already, go online, check out CDUS.us, and if you find something you like, use code Steep Stuff. It's good for one use only. It's gonna get you 20% off your car and uh giving you guys the hookup. So hope you enjoy it. Check it out, CDUS.us insoles and socks, they've got the best in the game.
Being A Beginner Again
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's been it's been really interesting. So, you know, I'm 35, so it feels weird being a beginner, especially in the realm of running. Um, I didn't think I thought I knew enough, but the more I learned, the more I'm like, wait, what do you mean? Like there's skyrunning. Like I didn't know that was like a whole nother realm of things, skyrunning and then um, you know, ultra marathoning, sub ultra. Um so it's just like, yeah, I'm I'm it feels weird, but I think that's kind of why I started to trail run, is to be new at something again and to kind of, you know, zest up, zest up the the regular running routine.
SPEAKER_01Nice. What do you like so far? I mean, obviously you've you've only kind of seen like broken arrow and that kind of vibe, which is for North America. I mean, that's that's the biggest, I that's the biggest race we got as far as North America goes. Um, is there anything that intrigues you outside of that? Like obviously sky running, which you'll be able to do, you'll get to go do uh Beast of Big Creek, but like flatter, fast stuff, does that intrigue you? Like a Black Canyon 50K or anything like that? I'm just kind of throwing ideas out there, just because all that fitness and speed that you have will transfer so well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um I'm learning that I'm naturally better at like the fast, flatter stuff, anything under like 2,000 feet of elevation, I can really, you know, get some turnover there. Um I am finding myself wanting to do more of like the sky running just because it's something I'm not good at, if that makes sense. Um and there's a lot of room for improvement. So I kind of want to um explore that a little bit more. Um but naturally I'm I'm very good at like just you know, as close to the track as it gets, I'm gonna be better at that. Um and I also find that like, you know, my strengths are um just going downhill really fast. Um but if it gets super technical going uphill, then yeah, I'm gonna slow down. Um, people are gonna pass me um become the downhill, then they better watch out.
Broken Arrow Lessons For Big Creek
SPEAKER_01Anything uh you learned at Broken Arrow, because obviously that's like throwing yourself just like anything, you're throwing yourself into the deep end of the pool, crazy high competition levels. Um, what did you learn from that that you can kind of take into Beast at Big Creek? Because I imagine it'll be like relatively similar competition. I think I'd say the 23k will probably be will have been a bit more competitive than Beast, but I think there's a lot of learning and good crossover for for a race like this.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, definitely. Um man, I need to work on um going from hiking to running. Um, I I didn't realize that was a hard thing to do. Um because once I like get into the hiking rhythm of it, like I'm like, I don't want to run. Like it's really hard. So I think just like also like just being able to go steady at first, like it's a long race. It's the distance isn't very long, but you're on your feet for a really long time. It's almost the same as being on your feet as long as a marathon, so you gotta treat it similar to that. Um so you know, um, broken arrow kind of just pushed out really, really hard and um kind of paid the price. Um the the last like 1,000 feet of elevation, that last bit um fell a couple times. Um and that seems to be a pattern um with my trail racing. Um, and yeah, just learned like slow and steady, save some some for the end. And um, that's kind of what I'm working on in training right now. Just like slow, steady, but like you can last for a really long time. So yeah, that's kind of what my takeaway. But um also just like pushing um the downhill is so important and the flat areas are so important. Um yeah, just trying to find that that middle ground of pushing myself hard, but not overdoing it.
SPEAKER_01Broken arrow is almost a weird puzzle to figure out. I thought about this because I was obviously out there and uh was playing on the course, and that was the first time I've ever ran that version of the loop. And I was like kind of surprised. I was like, wow, the first three miles of this was like surprisingly flat to downhill. It's like this is this is very weird. And then you start gaining. And it's like, all right, if you smoked yourself in the first three or four miles, like you're gonna have a really hard time in the back half of this course, uh, or in I guess the middle section of the course, if you will. So yeah, it's it's interesting and it goes out so damn fast. I was very surprised by that. Like uh people hammer and then they're they're right back with you within the first two miles. So it's very interesting. Uh so it's almost like a puzzle within a puzzle to kind of crack and figure out.
SPEAKER_00It really is. And it's like my strengths are like going a bit faster. Um, but I think I I went out a little too fast. I got excited. Um, you know, like if they can do it, I can do it mindset, and you never know until you try. So um yeah, but that's something I'm still working
Fueling Confidence And Ultra Curiosity
SPEAKER_00on.
SPEAKER_01How has the nutrition learning curve been for you? Trying to learn, like, oh, I need all of this electrolytes and you know, this amount of sodium and and gels and all that good stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's actually been pretty easy. I I feel like I have a goat tummy, like I can eat anything and drink anything and I'll be fine. Um, and I feel like I like taking down gels is like super easy. I've been using open fuel, which has been really helpful. Um, they have a flask that um can hold a few gels at once. Um and so I don't have to worry about like the sticky fingers and like finding places to stick my trash. And I can actually take some some of the gel and then leave it if I don't want to take a full one. Whereas like if you have a full gel and you you you kind of have to take it all or just throw it away because you don't want it like all over your, you know, your pack. Yeah, it's the worst. Yeah, all over your belt. Um, but yeah, so that's been really helpful. Um, but like I haven't really had troubles with that, that which makes me think I'd be really good at the ultra because I could just I literally can just eat all day while I'm running.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Does that interest you? Some of the like the longer stuff. Like you see these people doing like 100 miles and 100k. Is that is that intriguing at all?
SPEAKER_00It does. And um, the reason why I'm not like going straight to that is because I do regret when I went from like the 800 straight to like 5k steeple. I'm like, I wish I did more of like 15 in between. So I'm taking this year um and some part of probably next year just to do like subultra and get really good at that, and then dabble into the the ultra marathon. So thinking long-term here.
SPEAKER_01I like it. It's smart. I think it's the way to go. What what races? Like, is anything you've seen, like whether it's been people giving you advice or races that you might have seen through friends or on social media, what intrigues you race-wise? Is there anything like really cool out there that you're like, oh, I've got to do this, like a series and all or something like that?
Picking Races And Building A Resume
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the Cirque series looks really interesting. I already signed up for um A Basin, so I'm gonna be doing that. Yeah, it's closed too. So I can just drive to it, so that's nice. Um, I'm gonna be doing the um half trail champs, USATF trail champs, um, in Moab. So um doing more like half marathon 20K is um seems like my sweet spot right now. Um but I would say like besides like the Cirque series, um, I'm not really sure about any other um cool series out there. So let me know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I mean, especially too, if you're like stoked on the, I mean, obviously Cirque series is my favorite series of races to do. They're that's what I build my season on. But I um, yo, Golden Trail, I think you would do very well at too. I would check it, check that out. If you could get any of the Golden Trail races, I know it's late for this year, but for next year, definitely check out the Golden Trail series because that 20K to 30k sweet spot, like I think you'd especially with your pedigree and where you come from as a steepler, I think you'd crush it. Uh especially with another year under your belt of like learning all this stuff. Uh yeah, you could do quite well there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you. Um, I have been eyeing that, uh, but yeah, it's I think I don't really know how to get in. I don't know um what I need to do. So maybe I'll just build my resume this year and see what happens next year.
Joining Merrell And Finding A Team
SPEAKER_01There you go. Uh let's talk about Merrill. So you are a Meryl athlete. Talk about joining the team, what shoes you like. I know you were just with uh uh one of my co-hosts for the podcast, uh Rachel Tomajek, yesterday for a Merrill event. Shout out to Rachel. We love Rachel here. Um yeah, talk about what it's like joining the Merrill team, how excited you are, your favorite shoes, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the Merrill team is awesome. We have a group chat and it's pretty active. So it's it's fun to you know stay um stay in the loop with them. And um really everybody's super excited about the big um the beast of Big Creek coming up. Um, we're all gonna try to race. Um and yeah, just seeing people at events and feeling like I have a team is huge. Um, you know, Corey Wall Um Waltering, he uh recruited me, and um just having him as a mentor is really great. Um but yeah, it's been it's been awesome so far. I really love the shoes. Um, what I've raced in is is awesome. The long sky are my favorites to race in. Um and then my go-to trainers are Agility Peak Six. Um love those, have like three pairs in different colors. Um, so just swap those out. Um, but yeah, it's been great. Um, yeah, I'm I'm excited to see the team and um to get to know them a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love it. The investment that they've made, both on their athlete team. I mean, I think everybody, you guys have such a great athlete team, like so many amazing humans like love Corey, love Mercedes, Rachel, like Morgan, everybody's so cool. Um, but even more so, like the investment in the sport, I think uh into skyrunning and things like that are so pivotal and important because it helps grow that segment of the sport that people might not get to see as much on the American side. Like I think this is a really big deal and something very, I think, uh just important and special to be a part of because it's the first time we've had a world skyrunner race in the United States, like in a very long time, if not ever, depending on how people rank like the USA series from like back in 2019. So this is a uh a really special moment to have this race on American soil.
SPEAKER_00It really is. I'm so excited to be a part of it, even though I might not feel ready. We're gonna do it and see what happens.
Training Mix And Coaching Approach
SPEAKER_01What is uh what does training look like for you? Are you a uh on the trails almost every day kind of person? I know you said you mentioned you still get on the track a good amount. Are you on the roads a lot? I know you, if I remember correctly, you're in the Golden in Golden, Colorado, correct?
SPEAKER_00Um, I'm in Littleton. So very close. So just south of Golden. Um, but yeah, there's good trails around here. I can run outside my house and hit a trail. Um yeah, so I'm trying to get on the trails as much as possible right now. Um trying to work in as much vert as possible, um, just because that's my weakness, something like, you know, just building the muscles, like muscle memory, um, getting my legs ready to go downhill. Um and I I try to work in the long run, um, whether that's flat or in the trails, um, every week. Um, I typically will do a threshold every week, and that's on the roads or on the track, um, mostly on the roads. Um, and then maybe like every three weeks working a track workout. Like I actually did a track workout this week, and it was just short and sweet. It was like three sets of 300, 200, 100. So it's like getting that speed in and it's almost like a fit check. It's like, okay, can you still go 440 pace? Can you still go 430 pace? Um, I was able to, so we're still was we're still good there. Um, so I'm thinking like keep that in rotation. Um, but right now it's it's literally just maintaining my threshold and just trying to get on the trails as much as possible.
SPEAKER_01Do you coach yourself or do you work with a coach?
SPEAKER_00Uh so Andy Wacker, he um I joined the trail team. So it's kind of like a mixture. So I joined them um for workouts, and he's a really good mentor. He um helps guide me. And then I kind of just also do whatever I think I need to do. So it's it's a mixture. I think it there's gonna be a time when I I definitely need a coach that like writes me plans and we have a big like you know like a macro cycle and we're we're doing the thing. Um so I am looking if you have any recommendations in a my way, but um yeah, right now we're just kind of going with the flow and um learning a lot.
SPEAKER_01I love it. Yeah, it's important. I mean, when you pick a coach, it's definitely it's a good relationship. So you gotta make sure it's an it's like an obviously an important one. So and Andy, I think for guidance perspective, like, yo, that's a first ballot hall of famer. That's one of the greatest ever do it. Andy's got so much knowledge, and uh yeah, if there's anybody to learn from, Andy Wacker is the guy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he really is, yeah. Um great guy. Um, and yeah, I've already learned so much from him. Um, and yeah, I just really, really like that he's in my corner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just what he does for the sport too. I mean, it is it must be very cool for you, especially um, you know, being obviously coming onto the trails, but you had a career before going onto the trails. But you see a lot of the the younger folks, you know, 19, 20 years old coming out of college and uh well a little bit older than that, coming out of college and uh, you know, kind of making this transition onto the trails. And he just is, you know, gives so much guidance to everybody. And I think it's really special. I think it's amazing for the growth of the sport overall.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's it's really amazing. Yeah, seeing um all like meeting all of the athletes at Broken Arrow, they have so much potential and they have like a whole career like ahead of them. So it's really cool, it's really inspiring to see that. And it felt it was like a weird feeling because you know, I have had a career already, so um, I feel like I'm a seasoned runner, but I also there are some people that know more about trails than I do and have run more trail races than I have. So um feeling like a beginner with them, um, with some of them, and then you know, just trying to um also have the like ability to mentor them as well.
SPEAKER_01So cool.
Final Thoughts And Good Luck
SPEAKER_01Well, Carmen, thank you so much for coming on the show. This is a great conversation. First, great first convo. We'll have to do a long form one uh later on after we get you through the gauntlet of your season, and uh we'll have a lot to talk about and all good stuff there. So wishing you the best of luck at Beast of Big Creek. You're gonna smash it, and uh yeah, thank you for coming on, and we'll be in touch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, appreciate it.
