The Steep Stuff Podcast
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The Steep Stuff Podcast
Sam Lewis - Pre UTMB ETC Interview
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A hamstring injury doesn’t just take away fitness. It can mess with your confidence, your decision-making, and even your ability to trust basic sensations like a cramp. Sam Lewis joins us from the Chamonix area to talk about the messy middle of a comeback, right after a hard Sierre-Zinal and just before lining up for ETC near Courmayeur.
We get into what it’s like to train in the Alps without getting carried away, why UTMB week in Chamonix feels like a mini home for so many trail runners, and how Sam is approaching a short, fast mountain race as a way to reconnect with her roots. She also shares a meaningful shift in her week: pacing an OCC para athlete through Born To Adapt, and what it means to show up as support instead of chasing your own result.
Then we go deep on her PhD in philosophy of sport and sport ethics at the University of Idaho. Sam breaks down research on moral reasoning in sport, why win-at-all-costs culture can make people worse at ethical decision-making over time, and how coaches can actively teach better values through reflection and lived-experience focused tools. If you care about trail running culture, coaching, athlete development, and what we sacrifice to win, this one hits hard.
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SPEAKER_02This is the podcast. What's up, guys? Uh hey, before we get started, if you haven't already, whatever platform you're listening to this on, please hit that subscribe or follow button, whether that's Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. Those subscriptions go a super long way in being able to keep the podcast going and allowing me to continue to tell the stories of these amazing athletes and also do some of the race coverage and all the good stuff that we've been doing over the last few years. And also, if you haven't already, please give us a rating and a review if you haven't. Yeah. Let us know what you guys think about the podcast and hope you enjoy this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in.
Processing A Rough Sierre-Zinal Day
SPEAKER_02All right, Sam Lewis. Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast. How's it going?
SPEAKER_01Slim, thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, super excited to catch up. We haven't chatted since I think we have Broken Arrow of 2025. So this is uh we've got a lot to catch up on. I know this is like kind of a pre-ETC interview, but at the same time, I feel like there's a lot to chat about, including broken arrow, series and all, all of the all of the above. Um I'd say first question, how are you feeling post-Series and All? How's the body coming around?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's coming around. It's been an easy week. Um, took Monday and Tuesday, or Sunday, Monday, Tuesday really easy. Uh, did a workout on Wednesdays, and legs are kind of coming back. So that's been that's been nice. Um, had a rough go uh first time at Series and All, but um as always just so grateful to be able to like be on these starting lines with these amazing fields. And I mean, even a bat like a rough race in the Alps, you're still in the Swiss Alps, which I just have to remember.
SPEAKER_02So do you did you get to I was it's funny, I was just talking to Noah and he had him he had a tough day as well, Noah Williams. And uh, but we were talking about the course, and he's like, dude, this is the most beautiful course of the world. He's like, I'm suffering, but I'm looking around and seeing all these amazing things. He's like, I've never really got to kind of soak it in and enjoy it. So while you were in the midst of suffering, did you at least get to soak any of it in and enjoy some of the beauty of the course?
SPEAKER_01For sure. I mean, at a certain point, I was like, Sam, like, this is rough and this is super frustrating, but you need to like look up and remember where you are. Cause like I said, even a rough day, like in the Alps, you're still in the Alps, and like how special is that? Um, so yeah, I was like, sometimes when you're in a rough race, you're just so like here because you're maybe like, yeah, you're just you're kind of in it, you're in the box. And so I um just get telling myself to look up and remember like what we're doing, why we're here, and it is absolutely insane. Yes, the views are just absorbed, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Beautiful
Why Chamonix Feels Like Home
SPEAKER_02location. And so now you're in you know the greater Chamonix area. What's it like being back? I know you we kind of were talking offline pre-episode that this area means a lot to you. You've been coming for coming for a few years now. Uh, what's it like just kind of being in that area and just kind of soaking all that in?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Charmoni is so special. Um, it's one of the few places in the world that I've spent the most time, so I feel so comfortable here. Um, so it feels like a little a little mini version of home. And how cool is that that like we've got this little like so for so many of us, we have this special place in France that we get to spend a lot of time in. Um, the running here is obviously incredible, and it's nice when everyone starts to come into town because then there's like we get to just like run and hang out, and that's some we we all go to France to hang out, which we could do this in the States, but you know, France is pretty awesome.
SPEAKER_02So fair enough. How's the food? It's gotta be insane. I've actually never been to Chamonix. It's uh uh next year I'll probably go, uh or at least hope to. But yeah, how's the food like everything? It's probably insane, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's great. Um it's downtown, um jam gets really busy, so sometimes it's nice to kind of be a little bit removed from it. Um, but it is still nice to go into town and then like see everyone, go to Moody's Coffee, which amazing coffee. And um, I love how Moody has become the like one place that all the runners flock to. Like, there are other co coffee places in town, but everyone goes to Moody's. Um yeah, the food's amazing, and um, I don't know, I think we all just like it's there's just so much like I don't know, good energy in this place. It gets, like I said, really busy, um, and it can be overwhelming, but the energy's out of this world and it's such a special place for all of us to flock to uh for the T week.
SPEAKER_02Is it is it especially now like coming off a big race like series and all, you've got this like kind of lull in between. Chambi is like Candyland as far as like training goes. Like everything is straight up, straight down. Well, is it easy to get carried away in training and want to do big things, or is it easier for you to kind of like hold back and say, you know, I want to recover a little bit and to prepare for the next objective?
SPEAKER_01I think it's super easy to get carried away. And I think if especially if you have it, like if this was your first time in Chamonix, super easy. So I think you have to be really cognizant of what you're doing because it's so easy in the Alps to just get an insane amount of elevation during the week and um runs take longer as a result. So I think you just need to be really cognizant of those things, make sure you're still recovering really well. Um, I think because I've been here now, I think this is my fourth summer in a row. Um, I think I feel I'm more comfortable with just like being like doing my training and like um I've been able to explore it in past summer, so I'm not, I don't feel as um, like I said, it's like a little mini version of home. So I'm just like be able to do my thing, get in the training that I need to without getting too carried away.
SPEAKER_02Ah, I love it.
ETC Expectations And Mountain Race Roots
SPEAKER_02See, I I'd be the opposite of being doing everything I possibly can, show up tired. Um so we're you're racing ETC 15K with like 4,000-ish feet of vert, somewhere a little bit south of that. Um, have you gotten over to Cormayer to kind of explore that course yet?
SPEAKER_01I've actually never been to the Italian side. So um we'll see if I make it over there before the race. Um, I've definitely looked up some videos of the course to try to get an idea. Um, but yeah, it was like I had this opportunity to pace a para athlete for OCC actually, and so it was like, oh, like could there be something else I could hop into myself um to get a race effort in and pre-OCC? And so um ETC's on Tuesday and then OCC's on Thursday, and so um the priority was to be here for that para athlete, but then um yeah, ETC just uh happened to give me a good option too to get another race effort in before I leave Europe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, and we'll talk about the um the pacing in a second, but it's almost so perfectly aligned to where you have this Tuesday race and you can kind of support all your teammates and hang out and just it's soak in what is UTMB week without really having to do you know a ton of work. Obviously, you'll be pacing, so it's a little bit different, but like at least you CCC and UTMB, you can kind of like you know soak it all in and and enjoy while everybody else is out there kind of suffering. So not too bad.
SPEAKER_01Different dynamic than years past, because usually I'm racing OCC, so you're kind of in the thick of it all week. Um, yeah, so I kind of get my effort in earlier in the week and then piece the para athlete and then just be like big cheerleader the rest of the week because all my on teammates are doing UTMB or and Alyssa Clark is doing TDS. So um she her race starts, I think, midnight on Monday. So I guess Tuesday at midnight, but um yeah, otherwise everyone's doing UTMB, so it'll just be like major cheerleading mode. So be great.
SPEAKER_02Talk to me about this pay the pacing
Pacing An OCC Para Athlete
SPEAKER_02for the para athlete. Do you do you will you pace the entirety of the course? Is it just a section? Like how does that work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm pacing the whole thing, so I get to like be along for the whole journey, which is gonna be really cool. Um, I got connected to this para athlete through Zach Reedley, who has his nonprofit, the um Born to Adapt. Um, this athlete, um his name is Yahir, he's an Ecuadorian. He was here last year for and did OCC. Um, so this will be his second round. And um, I think his goal is to break like 10 and a half hours, which is gonna be super fun and exciting. And my job is to make sure I keep him moving, make sure he eats, and um, but yeah, it it's uh it's such a cool opportunity because otherwise I would be here, you know, racing, you know, OCC, CCC, and I um just be able to provide like to help someone else in their journey. Um a rare opportunity, but something I wanted to take full advantage of given I didn't have my own qualifier for the finals this year due to my hamstring debacle in the fall. And so um unique opportunity that I wanted to take full advantage of this year.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. I mean, and it's gotta feel so fulfilling to be able to help another athlete, you know, go through this amazing, incredible thing. I know like at the highest end of the sport, like we all take for granted, you know, our ability to move in the mar in the mountains and do all these things. And there's a whole lot of athletes trying to, you know, attempt and do things like this. So to help someone, you know, have have a special day, I think it's gotta that's so cool.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and this is like the stuff that just is so fulfilling to me. So I'm so excited for this opportunity. My teammate, Genevieve Harrison, um, got to Apacia here last year, and she said it was like one of the most special moments of her life. So I'm just excited to like be a part of it, help him, um, and look like go break. I think it's it's either 10 or 10 and a half hours, but regardless, it's gonna be it's gonna be a journey. It'll be a day, so I'm excited.
SPEAKER_02So
Rehab Reality After Hamstring Tears
SPEAKER_02cool. Talk to me about how it feels to be back from this hamstring injury. I I know and how good it must feel to because you know you had you raced a broken arrow this year, you've you're you're back at it, you're doing the thing again. Um how does it feel to be on the other side of injury? Because injury injury sucks, man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh, don't tear your hamstring tendons. Um yeah. Yeah, avoid that at all costs. Um, I mean don't get hurt in general, but uh tendons are just super tricky to come back from because there's still a little blood flow and trying to figure out loading tap patterns because the ways the way tendons need to heal is through load, and then you have to figure out what type of load. Um yeah, so I found out I DNF'd OCC last year because I tore both my hamstring tendons. We don't know at the origin, so like upper hammy. Um, we don't know exactly when it happened, if it was like at OCC or if it had been um previous to that. It is something I have been dealing with for a while. I had like upper hamstring tendonopathy since like the minimum OCC of 2024. So it had been like just a tendon injury that like, you know, I was able to manage for a really long time, and we found different ways to navigate it, but then at some point I just kind of lost the battle a little bit with it. Um, yeah, so spent the whole fall, like most not running, um biking a lot, spent way too much time indoors in the gym, just trying to rehab. Um, I ended up getting uh shockwave and PRP um in the fall, and then I did a second round of shockwave in March because I was still honestly having issues up until like uh July 1-ish, just like some residual like issues in my glutes, just stuff was going on, like it was still like there was junk in there, like I couldn't get over. So um now I feel like I'm it's not something that I'm cognizant cognizant of every single day, which is really nice just to like wake up and not like the first thing isn't like is it gonna today? Which is like a huge relief. Um, yeah, and so like I'm back at it. It's been oh man, I think the comeback from injury is we it's such a grind, right? Like you're you're really in it for so long. Um, and then getting back into racing can be like really tough too. Um, I think it's something that we probably don't talk enough about. Like it's hard to I think it's hard to come back, right? You miss some time. Um, obviously it's like so amazing to be back and I'm so grateful to be back, but then like some of these rookie nutrition errors I made at Sirias and all, I'm like, like I talked to my dadities after the race and I was like, what am I doing? Like this isn't something, you know, I've been into sport long enough, like that felt like such rookie moves, but sometimes coming off a major injury, like you have to remember how to do the thing. Um, and so I'm kind of like, I feel like I'm in a little bit of like a major learning curve right now again. Um, so here's the always learning, um, which is important and good. Um, but also like it's been a little frustrating. Like, I I had a great um, I was really excited about my effort um during the ascent at Broken Arrow, doubled back for the 23k, a little rough, probably a little ambitious given where I was at with my fitness. And um yeah, so it's just now it's just kind of navigating that comeback process. Um I probably like not making it the easiest on myself to like, you know, my opener is broken arrow, which is the most competitive races in the US, and then um to do Sears and all. Yeah, just like kind of like throwing myself back in it. But um maybe there's some beauty in that too, like just kind of going for it and trying to put the pieces together. And um, it's so competitive these days that I don't think it really matters what race you do, like you better be able to be in there and uh mix it up. And we're just working on mixing it up right now.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Uh I think the only that's the only way to do it. Obviously, you know, you can race your way back into fitness as well, but it's like a muscle, you know. It the race IQ, the more you race, the better you get at it, you know. I I think that's that's truly uh a deaf. I was funny, I was literally just talking to Noah about this. Like it literally is a muscle that you have to, you know, you have to work on. So I love it. Yeah, and I commend you for uh coming back, especially because hamstrings are such like a like a like a finicky, like it's a it's a tough thing. Do you when you tore them, what did and this is a weird question, but like does it feel like when you have like a crazy hamstring cramp? Like what did that feel like? And did it bruise like when you tear a hamstring kind of thing?
SPEAKER_01No bruising. Um, so I DNF'd at OCC, so like at mile 10, it started to cramp really bad. Like my whole like um basically from my like low back to upper hamstring, like my glutes, everything was just like I couldn't move. Um, I know my friend uh and former on teammates after really saw me around like 10 miles, and he's like, You look like you look like shit. And I was like, Yeah, because I couldn't move my body. Um and so then it took me like five miles to kind of grapple with the decision to DNF, um, but because I was reduced to walking, like I couldn't run anymore. And so then it was like, do I walk for the next 20 miles? And decided not to, and I'm glad I didn't just because I was legitimately hurt at the time. Um I fully believe, like firmly believe in finishing if you can, but obviously physically there needs to be like you know, good decisions made in that process too. But um, yeah, I just cramped super bad, and I think that's why it freaked me out a little bit during stairs and all, is like I cramped at the top of the climb in my hamstrings, and I was like, you know, and it was just like you gotta be joking. Like I this is the same. It wasn't to the extent of OCC last year, and like I logically know that I worked so hard this fall, like there's nothing there can't be anything structurally wrong at this point, and they're so much stronger. Um, but it's like a little bit of that trauma, kind of maybe like um, yeah, you just like your nervous system, like I I could feel it, like it panicked because it was like, holy shit, like you just spent almost a year of your life coming back from this thing, and it just cramped, like ah. So um, but like we've been we're good now, like upper hammies were a little spicy coming off of sears and all, but everything feels fine. So I think it was just like um, like I said, some nutritional errors, and then probably it makes sense that the one part of my body that's um gonna cramp is probably the hamstrings, even though they are so much stronger, like it makes sense to me. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Plus, like, I mean, one thing too I I think about is because I I I I there's a quite a few athletes that actually deal with like crazy cramping and like have been like uh like talk about it sometimes, like Garrett Rokoran, Dan Kurtz is one who deals with it. I've dealt with like some weird neuromuscular cramping before that I I didn't think was like related to strength. I thought it was like more nutrition-based, but it's like a conversation that comes up. It's like, huh, did I check this box? Did I check that box? But like series and all, I feel like the neuromuscular load for that because you're doing a double VK in the first climb. When do you when would you do that at a race effort, right? Like that's like super hard. And like the first time coming back and trying that, I wonder if like that probably, you know, that probably has a lot to do with it, you know.
SPEAKER_01So um, I'm really involved in the Scenes Mountain running camp. And so when I was out there on the Scenes Mountain, we try to do some different stimuluses to like best prepare me for uh Sears and all. And yeah, even so, like it was um Max King put this really well. He's like, it's just really hard to prepare for that race, and you think you might do like really good prep, but just like shit happens. Um, and I told Max, I was like, dude, I set the bar so low this time, and he was like, Don't worry, I did two my first year, and then I got third the next year.
SPEAKER_02So I was like, it takes some time to figure out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it takes a lot of people. I mean, Christian Helen, dude, just I think it's just his third crack at it, and he finally, yeah, finally got one. So Eli, Tabor, quite a few people. Well, it's taken them quite a few times. So
PhD Research On Sport Ethics
SPEAKER_02um moving on, I wanted to talk to you about uh you've been working on your PhD. Uh, I think that was the last time we talked, we had talked about it. Um talk to me about like where you're at in that, how close you are to graduation, what you're working on specifically, and and just kind of that aspect of your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh that journey's coming to a close, which I'm so excited about. Um, it's been like an absolutely life-changing experience, but I'm very ready to be a student anymore. Um it's like my sixth year of my PhD. We're ready to be done. Um, so I will walk at graduation in December, which is super exciting. Um, I should be done though sometime this fall. Um I have like the second half of the dissertation to write. Um, chapters one through three were written for my proposal. Uh the research was implemented this spring. Um, and now the data is being analyzed, and now I have to write chapters four, five, and six. And so there's still like some work to be done. And it's been tough this summer because I've traveled so much during the summer to like really sit down and work on it. Um, that's been kind of nice being here in Chamonix, besides running. The only thing I like really need to do is the PhD. So it's actually like forcing me to sit down and tight, which has been good. Um, but yeah, so I am studying philosophy of sport and sport ethics uh at the University of Idaho in the Center for Ethics. Um my major professor, her like the foundation of all of the research that we do in the Center for Ethics is based on this question she was asked by her first student back in like 1989. And it was um, do you think that the normal population um is as morally developed? Or sorry, do you think the sport population is as morally developed as the normal population? And my major professor had, yeah, like does sport build character? Right, does sport build moral character? And of course, like most of us, it's like, oh, does sport build killer character? We're like, hell yeah, it does. Like, I'm a good person. I've been in sports my whole life, so of course. And my major professor is like was a professional athlete, a coach. Um, and so she was like, I'm a good person. So, like, yeah, for sure. So then she read all these books over winter break, came back, and her doctor student asked her the same question. And after all the literature that she read, she was like, There's no way, like in the win at all cost culture, we are not developing a moral character. And so then it led down this path of like this line of research over the last 35 years in moral reasoning and moral development in athletics. And so, what they found, and what we found over the last 35 years, is that the longer you are in the win at all costs culture, your levels of moral reasoning and moral development decrease. So, sport is not making us better people.
SPEAKER_02It's making us worse.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's making us worse, um, which is like such a hard thing to grapple with because you're like, wait a second, like I mean, the trail running community, like these are all such amazing human beings, there's no way, like, um, and certain sports score lower than others. Um, but so what they do, um so then moving forward, they're like, okay, so what is sport actually creating though? Because there's definitely like a character that's being developed throughout this process. And so one of our next doc students did another research project and basically found that sport is developing a social character defined by values like sacrifice, hard work, teamwork, perseverance, um, loyalty, like all these amazing values that sport does promote, right? And these values are echoed in society at large too. So um, none of those are inherently evil values, but um the problem is it's who and what you're willing to sacrifice to win. So, like, for instance, if you're in a soccer, right? And you you kick the ball out of bounds and you know that you did that, but the ref did not see it. Even if we haven't been explicitly told this by the coach, we're not gonna be honest about what we did. We're gonna like, because we want to win. So we're gonna uphold the social value of loyalty and sacrifice moral values like honesty or uh responsibility to our competitors and to the rules of the game, right? Um, and so yeah, it gets tricky. And then people are like, okay, well, that just only happens in sport. It's not like we're not gonna make those same decisions in society, but sport is a microcosm of society. Like I said, the values that we see in sport we see in society. And so, like, the more that we practice these things in sport, it will transfer into life, and so we have to be super, super careful. But what's cool about that is that sport represents this amazing uh platform to practice and to improve actually our moral reasoning and moral development because those values are the same. Um, and so you know, we see all this, like she gets all this research back, it's like, okay, so we're not really developing a moral character, we're getting worse. And she's like, This doesn't sit well with me. And so now um my major professor has basically developed um pedagogy or like teaching curriculum, and how she instructs that she can basically go into a space and now can almost guarantee that over the course of 12 weeks that she can increase the levels of moral reasoning. Immoral development in a population. And she's been hired all over the world to do it. So she's been hired by Wana, Usada, the IOC, the military. She worked at in the NCAA at Alabama and Georgia and the MLB with the Atlanta Braves. And so she's and right now she's currently working with national cybersecurity to teach AI ethics, which is like fascinating. Yeah, so that's like the whole research line. And so then all of our projects are branches of that. I'm really passionate about the lived experience of athletes. Throughout my experiences as an athlete, and then I coached collegiately with the University of Idaho for seven years. I just saw like the objective experience in sport is really important. Obviously, we gave arbitrary meaning to all these numbers and it's it creates the game. So like we need them, but I think sometimes we forget about the athletes in the process. And um yeah, I just think that sport represents can be such a meaningful experience, and we forget about the athletes in the process a little bit. And so I wanted to develop something to help future coaches in the sport um balance that objective and subjective um aspects of sport to help ultimately help their athletes um either not burn out but also like regain why they like love the game. Right. So I yeah, yeah, basically like how like let's help everyone understand like why we're doing the thing. And I so I developed a podcast. It's called The Coach's Dilemma, What Will You Do to Win? And for my dissertation specifically, it's a 12 week so 12 episodes that are geared specifically on topics within the Libs experience and again providing these tools to future coaches. Um yeah, and it's been like it was such a cool um process and program to develop. It took a really long time because it was really intentional, and we had to really think about like what these episodes we wanted to cover. Um, within the Center for Ethics, we have so many former doc students who have done research in different aspects of the lived experience. So what was really cool is that I was able to call on so many of my colleagues and you know did episodes with them as the topic expert guests, which was really great. Um and yeah, and so then we implemented, so then with the podcast episodes, the other piece of this was the reason we chose a podcast was our that as a means to deliver um this information was um through the undergraduate classes I taught at University of Idaho and I also taught at Washington State University. Um no one's reading textbooks anymore. I mean, I'll admit even in my undergrad, I probably wasn't reading the textbooks. Um, and we're in a digital age. So, like, how can we bridge that information gap that probably exists right now? And we everyone listens to podcasts, so we're like maybe podcasts could be tendential means to do that. And so that's why we chose podcasting. We got some funding actually from the uh movement sciences department to create like a little podcast studio in the Center for Ethics, which is great. And um, yeah, and so then the other piece of this was like, okay, podcasting is more of like a passive means of um like uh it's it's passive, right? You're not really actively engaging with it. You might have conversations coming off of a podcast, but for the most part, it's like you take in the information you might think about and then it's just kind of move on from there. And so we had to be like, how do we create active engagement with podcasting? And so because this was being implemented into um undergraduate sport management and movement science courses, we were able to create like reflection assignments post each podcast episode. And the students had there was like content questions to see how well they were listening to the episode, and then there was reflection questions as well, so that they could actually write um and reflect about their own experiences in sport. And that's like the meat of it is those three written reflection questions. Um, we had to increase the not to get into the too much into the details, but we had to like increase the levels of like ordered reasoning in in these like written reflection questions to get them to a place that they can actually think about their experiences, the meaningfulness of their experiences in sport, and then project that into commun the community at large, right? Like, how do my experiences impact how I'm interacting with humans? And like then when you take those perspectives outward, like can you still apply that same perspective to other humans and how you interact? And um, that's where perspective change occurs. So it's called third ordering questions, but uh yeah, so it's been um a super fulfilling process. I'm a better person through going through the program. Um and yeah, I am also very ready to be done too. Um it's it's been a journey, but like how cool is that to go through something that has been it's been like I mean, I did my master's previous and now I'm working on my PhD, but it's been like nine-ish years. I haven't been in school the whole time, but nine-ish years of my life kind of dedicated to this thing, and um there's been a lot of personal growth and stuff that's come out of this, and I'm just so incredibly grateful for the experience.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing. I have so many questions off this. I'd say first and foremost, uh with the threat of ending it though, and for it being over in December, will you do you plan to teach? Uh, like what would you do like kind of post grad?
SPEAKER_01Such a good question. Um, and that's been like everyone's question. I don't have a great answer, honestly, right now. I um there are like I could kind of I could be a consultant, like my major professor is. I could go into academia. Um, I did coach in the NCAA for seven years. I think right now, with how things have changed with um name, image, likeness, and IL, I don't think it aligns with my value structure right now. And so I think I need to let the NCAA figure out its stuff before I head back to that. Um, but I I don't know. I'm really excited to honestly kind of um not like have a full-time gig post-graduation. Like I'm really excited to kind of go all in on running. And in my professional career, I haven't had the opportunity to do that yet, and I am so ready to do that. Um, so that's gonna be part of it. But I will say, like, I use my PhD, like what I've learned every single day, how I communicate with human beings, like it is that's how much it's impacted me. So, like, regardless if like I don't quote unquote go into the field, I am like you are kind of like a part of the field, regardless. And um, morality and philosophy is like it's all personal reflection, it's how you interact with people. So I do use it daily and it's changed my life. So um I'm better for it for sure.
SPEAKER_02So cool. Uh listen, I love it. Um I like the idea of not having anything to do, uh, you know, or at least getting a little break and get good getting to pursue that life of a full-time athlete, just to you know, kind of check that box and see where that goes. Because, you know, when you don't have the ability to do it, and a lot of your competitors are full-time athletes, and it you know, sometimes it's harder to close the gap when you uh you know when you have a lot of other things going on in your life. So definitely uh will be cool to do. Second question I have off this, I'd be curious, like what sports like tested like the lowest of morality versus like what tested like the highest?
SPEAKER_01Do you have any guesses?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I'd say tennis very low.
SPEAKER_00So I'll tell you team sports tested lower. Team sports tested lower. Yeah. So interesting.
SPEAKER_02I don't know why I picked tennis, but I was just like, I have a couple friends that are tennis players and they're savages. Um and they were like high-level tennis players.
SPEAKER_01Tennis uh tested lower.
SPEAKER_02I would guess is what you think. Yeah, but that's just off of like my my own personal, so it's never, you know, it's never uh a good guess on the data, if you will. Um yeah, so team sports tested lower. Well, like specific sports though, like anything like specific, like as who tested higher, tested lower.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's interesting that you bring up tennis because I feel like everyone says football, because they're like, you know, they just assume that football's gotta be the lowest, and it's actually not. Um so the lowest uh the sports that test lowest uh have the lowest levels of moral reasoning and moral development are sports with sticks. So hockey, um uh lacrosse, field hockey, right? Like these, because you are if you're not again directly taught how like by your coaches to hit people with sticks, you're doing things um but when the rest aren't looking. And so interesting. And then actually like sports like um so individual sports test the highest, and golf is one of them that tests the highest because you're you're generally any sport that you have to regulate yourself tends to test higher um than other sports. Interesting. So golf is one of them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Where does running kind of fall like in in as far as like standard deviation, like with the uh like on the graph, if you will?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I don't actually know. I need to ask my major professor if uh running's ever been like specifically targeted. Um I would assume it kind of is in the middle. Like um, I think that there's just some, yeah, just because there's um we are technically regulating ourselves out there, right? Um, but I think there's some different cultural aspects to it too, because like how Europeans navigate courses and in them, you know, in the US would be like, well, is that cutting your course? But they look at it like it's the most efficient line, right? And so I think there's some different cultural differences too. Um I but it is an individual sports, it's gonna score higher than some of the team sports for sure. Um, but I do see areas where it could get a little a little tricky. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, the doping doping conversation, but doping conversations in every sport, you know. So like that's uh that's not just nuance to to our you know to running and things like that.
Next Races And UTMB Qualifier Plans
SPEAKER_02So yeah, interesting. Um super cool. I we could do a whole other podcast on that. I do want to move back to ETC for the sake of time because we only have a few minutes. Um, but um ETC, what would it mean to you do well in this race, especially after all you've gone through, you know, and to uh to to knock one out of the park or have a you know a result that you would be proud of here? What would that mean to you?
SPEAKER_01No, it would it would mean so much. I think I have struggled a little bit in this comeback to racing. Um and so to be able to just feel really good coming off of that finish line and just be like, fuck yeah, like I did the thing today, I did the best that I was able to do, and whatever that means for the result, but like me leaving, um just being like I pursued my best today and I fucking did it. Like I would be just over the moon about that a hundred percent. Um because I also recognize like ETC is definitely like gonna be this short and fast rip in Cormayer. Um it's a little bit outside of what I've been doing over the last couple of years, and so it's probably outside of my comfort zone a little bit, but also reuniting with how I entered the space in trail running because like the first two world teams I made were in the up-down classic mountain races. We're kind of getting back to my roots a little bit, which is exciting because I definitely then that over the next couple of years, like it's gonna be 50, 100Ks, like that's where I'm trying to like going and have been, and um obviously excited to kind of reunite with the longer distances, but it that is one thing that's been cool about this year is despite some of the rough goes, like I've never done the ascent at Broken Arrow before. And so to be able to do that, and I had a great day there, um, was really fulfilling. So it's it's good to kind of like do things that scare you a little bit, get outside your comfort zone, and um run hard and fast. So it's gonna be it's gonna be really fun. And I'm excited to be on the Italian side and get to experience that course.
SPEAKER_02So cool. Beautiful answer, by the way. Um what do you got left? Like, what's what are you doing after this? Like uh after you get back from UTMB. Do you have any like races on the calendar or kind of chilling or what's the plan?
SPEAKER_01Um to I would love to have a qualifier for UTMB finals next year. Um, and so we're looking at like Kodiak or Thailand. Um, Thailand definitely gives me some more time. Um, my coach and I were kind of chatting about maybe getting in just like a fall block that we're like a little bit more volume based. Now that I'm not, I mean, I'm still finishing up my PhD, but I did just move from Idaho back to Colorado. So I'm like not in school now. Um, and so I theoretically have more time to train um because I'm not working full-time and um going to school full-time. So yeah, kind of doing like a bigger volume block. Um, I think for my longevity, that would be really helpful because we haven't, I mean, since last year I haven't been able to as much. And um, yeah, so we're kind of looking at like that October, December type of range. Um, I think I just need to make a decision between Kodiak and Thailand and then kind of go from there and we'll kind of fill in um some pieces, like um, yeah. I'll be good.
SPEAKER_02Dude, totally unrelated. I just watched the uh the documentary on Netflix about the Idaho in the Idaho murders, like in Moscow. Oh my god, that is crazy, like completely crazy. Um, I know you you were obviously in school there. Uh yeah, that's nuts, super crazy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Before that, it was like this everyone felt so safe and secure. It's just like the small town Idaho community, and everyone's really close. And then that happened, and people got cameras outside their homes. They started locking doors, like it really uh traumatized the whole community for sure. And what a horrible, horrible thing happened. So sad. So sad.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, crazy documentary. Anybody that yeah, I how you recommend to watch. Um, Sam, thank you so much for coming on the show. Amazing conversation, uh, as always. I really appreciate your time. Wishing you the best of luck at ETC. And uh, yeah, we'll definitely be in touch. We'll find it next race, we'll find uh we'll find a way to get you back on the pod and continue the combo. And uh yeah, also best of luck and congratulations on finishing the PhD in December. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate your time too. It's um I love what you're doing, so thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thank you. Interrupting
Cetus Insoles Partner Message
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